Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 7th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 107 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motions adopted by the committee on Thursday, March 9, 2023, and Tuesday, December 5, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of the recognition of Persian Gulf veterans and wartime service.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders, and Ms. Blaney is participating by video conference.

Colleagues, I would like to introduce our new clerk, Marie‑Hélène Sauvé. She's new to the committee, but she's not new to the job, and she's well versed in the procedures. We're pleased to have her with us today.

I will introduce the witnesses we have with us.

I would like to welcome our witnesses with us today.

From the Department of National Defence, we have Major-General Erick Simoneau, deputy commander, military personnel command; Brigadier-General Luc Girouard, director general support, chief of joint logistics; and Dr. Sean Graham, historian, directorate of history and heritage.

From the Department of Veterans Affairs, we have people who are regulars at the committee, including Amy Meunier, assistant deputy minister, commemoration and public affairs branch.

We are also joined by Mr. Pierre Tessier, assistant deputy minister, strategic policy, planning and performance branch, and Mitch Freeman, director general, policy and research.

Welcome, everyone. You will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

We'll begin with Veterans Affairs Canada, so I invite Pierre Tessier to take the floor for the next five minutes.

[Pierre Tessier, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Planning and Performance Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members, for the invitation to appear before the committee today. As a veteran myself, I especially understand how Canadian veterans and their families have dedicated their lives to our nation's service. This service deserves to be recognized. I would like to thank the veterans and their families who are in the room or are watching today for their service.

Veterans Affairs Canada plays an important role in remembering and recognizing the enormous sacrifices made by those who have served in uniform.

These sacrifices are recognized in two ways: through commemoration and through benefits and services. Veterans Affairs Canada gratefully acknowledges the dedicated service of all veterans and members of the Canadian Armed Forces, including those who served in the Persian Gulf.

We value the ongoing and active dialogue between veterans' organizations, the Minister's advisory groups, veterans, their families, stakeholders and parliamentarians, which allows us to hear important perspectives on how best to recognize Persian Gulf veterans and other modern-day veterans.

The practice of categorizing military service is a CAF/DND process done with the interest of providing CAF members and veterans with the benefits to which they are entitled from National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada.

This categorization helps to determine what kinds of supports or compensation they should receive. Modern veterans benefit from a comprehensive framework of benefits and services, such as pain and suffering disability benefits, treatment benefits, financial benefits, rehabilitation benefits, education and training benefits, case management services, mental health programs and many others. This programming supports the various needs of the veterans community.

When it comes to determining eligibility benefits and services under the Veterans Well-being Act, two key principles come into play: the insurance principle and the compensation principle. These principles help to decide whether a veteran's medical condition is related to their military service.

The insurance principle, which provides 24-7 coverage, works like an all-inclusive insurance policy. Under this principle, if a veteran is serving in a special duty area or during a special duty operation—an SDA or an SDO—any medical condition that is diagnosed, established or aggravated during that time is automatically considered to be related to their service.

The compensation principle is different. It applies when a veteran's service doesn't fall under the special conditions of an SDA or SDO. Under this principle, to qualify for benefits there must be evidence that their medical condition was directly related to their military service.

Throughout Canada’s military history, we have much to honour and remember. However, not all veterans feel connected to the stories of military achievements that occurred long before their time.

While we will always pay tribute to the pivotal events of the First World War, the Second World War and the Korean War, we are increasingly focused on honouring Canada’s modern-day veterans and operations. This includes those who served in the Persian Gulf and other missions in the Middle East in the 1990s.

We'll continue to ask modern veterans what kinds of commemorative and recognition activities interest them most. They should be able to recognize themselves in everything we do to honour them.

I can assure the committee that our department understands the importance of recognizing modern-day veterans, including those who served in the Persian Gulf.

This year, for example, in March we recognized the 10th anniversary of the end of Canada's mission in Afghanistan and 60 years since Canadians joined the United Nations peacekeeping force in Cyprus. In June we marked the 60th anniversary of the end of the United Nations operations in Congo, which included approximately 300 Canadians.

We're also making sure to recognize and remember those who served in domestic missions. For example, in recent years we've marked the 25th anniversary of our military's response to the Red River flood in Manitoba and to the crash of Swissair Flight 111 off the coast of Nova Scotia.

The veterans who supported these and modern-day operations are most deserving of being recognized for their service.

We will continue to do all we can to ensure that all our veterans are represented and recognized for their service to Canada.

I and my colleagues, Ms. Meunier and Mr. Freeman, would be pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you very much for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much for your presentation, Mr. Tessier.

I would now like to invite Major‑General Erick Simoneau to take the floor for the next five minutes.

[MGen Erick Simoneau, Deputy Commander, Military Personnel Command, Department of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As you mentioned, my name is Major‑General Erick Simoneau, deputy commander of military personnel command in the Canadian Armed Forces. With me today are Brigadier‑General Luc Girouard of the strategic joint staff, and Sean Graham, our military historian.

We are pleased to be here to answer your questions regarding our policies and processes related to benefits, compensation and recognitions related to operations in order to support our members who, as you know, are willing to risk their lives in the service of our country.

In terms of areas of responsibilities, I would like to note that the Department of National Defence is responsible for serving members of the Canadian Armed Forces, while responsibilities related to veterans' compensation and benefits reside with our colleagues from Veterans Affairs.

As it pertains to the process in which operations are classified as either special duty areas or special duty operations, General Girouard will be able to provide greater details as required on those aspects.

I would also like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the ongoing discussion as it pertains to wartime service and special duty service. I think that it's important to point out up front that applying these categories is not meant to signal greater or lesser respect for service members and veterans, nor are such categories indicative of a lesser degree of risk on the part of those deployed. Rather, these categories are derived through analysis of risk and hardship for each operation based on their own merit.

Again, General Girouard will be able to dive into those aspects as required.

As I mentioned, veterans' benefits are the responsibility of Veterans Affairs Canada. That said, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces work closely with Veterans Affairs Canada to ensure that these benefits are and continue to be well suited to the needs of our members and veterans.

Thank you for inviting us here today. We would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much for your remarks, Major‑General Simoneau.

We'll go to the first round of questions. I would ask my colleagues to indicate who they're speaking to.

I invite Mr. Blake Richards to take the floor for the next six minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

I'll start by taking up Major-General Simoneau on the suggestion that Brigadier-General Girouard may be able to provide us with a bit more information about the differences or distinctions between active service, special duty service and wartime service.

Could you maybe enlighten us on the differences there, for clarity for the committee?

[Brigadier-General Luc Girouard, Director General Support, Chief of Joint Logistics, Department of National Defence]

Thank you very much for your question, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

As was said, my name is Brigadier-General Luc Girouard. Important to answering this question is the fact that I'm representing the strategic joint staff, which is one of the highest organizational levels in the Canadian Armed Forces, providing advice to our chief of the defence staff.

Our mission at the strategic joint staff is to provide timely and effective military analysis, decision support and command enablement to the chief of the defence staff, who is the principal military adviser to the Government of Canada.

That aspect is important to how I will proceed with the following answer. I believe the question centred around the main differences between wartime service and special duty service.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That's correct.

[BGen Luc Girouard]

I'll just consult my notes there for one second, please, if you will.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That's my time, I assume.

[BGen Luc Girouard]

When it comes to special duty service, subsection 2(1) of the Veterans Well-being Act defines the term “special duty service” as service in a designated special duty area or a special duty operation.

[Brigadier-General Luc Girouard, Director General Support, Chief of Joint Logistics, Department of National Defence]

For these two areas, we can boil it down to the evaluation of risk. In a latter sense, it can also evaluate the hardships that our serving members will be serving under.

Again, it's important to highlight that it is focused for serving members and not specifically for veterans—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we only get so much time, so I'm trying to make sure we get to where we need to be.

What you're telling me, I think, essentially, if I were to boil it down into a very short sentence, is there's a determination that's made about the risk level, and that's what determines the difference between special duty service and wartime service. If I were to boil it right down, is that fair? Am I accurate in reflecting what you've said there?

[BGen Luc Girouard]

Thank you—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Just try to make it brief, please.

[BGen Luc Girouard]

We do not make the difference. From a Canadian Armed Forces perspective, we do not consider wartime service when it comes to how our members are going to be...or under what conditions they're going to be serving. It is all about the special duty service and what levels of hardship and risk they will be compensated for.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay. I'm not sure I'm clear, but I'm not sure we're going to get there in the short period of time we have.

What I hope I'm not hearing is that somehow we've determined that those who served in the Persian Gulf or Afghanistan were not under an incredible level of risk. I almost feel like that's what I'm hearing, and if that's what I'm hearing, that's concerning to me, because they clearly were. Frankly, they served in wars, and I think you would probably agree with me, but I know you have to read what's on your page.

Let me ask this. I don't know if the answer will be different, but I'll ask both DND and VAC, and if it's the same answer for both, one of you can provide it, but if it's different for both, I'd like to hear from each organization.

In terms of insurance coverage for those who are injured in fighting, whether it be in a special duty area versus in what's designated as a war, is there a difference for those two types of service?

[Pierre Tessier]

I can take the question, given it's compensation-related: There is no difference in the coverage 24-7 around the insurance principle for both of those.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

We have actually heard testimony from veterans in this study who indicated to us that their understanding of the policy is that the coverage of injuries under special duty service is, in fact, significantly less than what it would be if it's considered wartime service. Are you indicating to us that this is not accurate? Do veterans of conflicts—for example, the Persian Gulf or Afghanistan—actually get less than a Korean War veteran would get, for example?

[Pierre Tessier]

The way I would frame or answer the question is that it's a bit more; it's not just the coverage. VAC legislation and programs have evolved through the years. Persian Gulf veterans can fall under what is called the Pension Act, which also includes wartime service if they applied for disability before April 1, 2006, before the Veterans Well-being Act came into effect.

Under the Veterans Well-being Act, if they have another condition as a result of the initial condition after this date or they have a new condition as a result of that service, the Pension Act disability pension covered economic and non-economic factors into the pension, whereas the Veterans Well-being Act that came into force on April 1, 2006—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Are you indicating that it's more in relation to the 2006 changes? Are you saying that there would be no difference otherwise in the treatment of a Korean War veteran, a Persian Gulf veteran, an Afghan veteran or any other veteran?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Tessier, you have 15 seconds to conclude, please.

[Pierre Tessier]

That's correct. The main difference between the Pension Act and the Well-being Act and the treatment between different groups is the April 1, 2006, date.

There are some nuances between war service and others—SDO, SDA—in the Pension Act, but where there are differences, Veterans Affairs ensures that every veteran is taken care of, especially around long-term care.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Tessier.

Before I go on, I'd like to welcome Mr. Mel Arnold, who will replace Mr. Fraser Tolmie.

Welcome.

Mr. Wilson Miao, you have six minutes to ask questions, please.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First I'd like to thank our officials for joining us today from both DND and VAC.

I'd like to direct my following question to the National Defence official.

When the Governor in Council placed a Canadian CAF member from service to active service, who is informed of this classification if we're focusing on the Persian Gulf war?