Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 24th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 110 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motions adopted by the committee on March 9 and December 5, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of the recognition of Persian Gulf veterans and wartime service.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I invite witnesses and colleagues to address their questions through the chair.

For today, we have two full hours with two witnesses. I'd like to welcome them.

We have, as an individual, Mr. Sean Bruyea.

He's a regular at this committee.

He is a retired captain and air force intelligence officer. Welcome.

We also have retired Lieutenant (Navy) Louise Richard, who was a registered nurse.

Because we have two full hours, you can take more than five minutes for your opening statements. If you need to stop—this is especially for Ms. Richard—during the two full hours, just let me know. We can take a break and come back.

I'm going to start with you, Mr. Bruyea, for your opening statement. The floor is yours.

[Sean Bruyea, Retired Captain, Air Force Intelligence Officer, As an Individual]

I thank the committee members most sincerely for having me return, especially along with Louise Richard.

Louise raised our national awareness and paved the way for Canada's political and media landscape to learn that veterans of modern combat are treated to a lesser standard than war veterans. That is why I call her “the mother of modern veteran advocacy”. Together, we pushed and negotiated with various federal departments to permit the distribution of 5,000 Kuwait medals that were reminted to replace the 2,000 that Ottawa misplaced. We personally distributed more than 2,000 of those medals over the subsequent two years.

Exactly 25 years and two days ago, in our first media coverage together, Louise and I called for Gulf War veterans t too be designated veterans and our SDA be declared a war. On the tenth anniversary of the Gulf War, Louise Richard, Robert Clarke and I would, in the words of the media, "ambush" Minister Art Eggleton and Minister Ron Duhamel outside the Commons, demanding veteran status and recognition of the Gulf War as a war. On March 29, 2001, VAC declared that we had the right to be called veterans. Minister Duhamel told us in his office that this had happened because of our efforts.

Louise and I witnessed the CF undergo a barrage of changes. The Stowe and McLellan reports produced 93 recommendations. SCONDVA held hearings throughout Canada and Germany. Before the 1998 report was finalized with 89 recommendations, the CF started implementation. Meanwhile, Veterans Affairs dragged its feet.

In 2005, the regressive new veterans charter would pass in Parliament without one word of debate in the House. Regulations would be gazetted over the Christmas holidays and during an election, both prohibited by Treasury Board.

Our 2005 testimony to the Senate opposing the replacement of lifelong pensions and our call for due process for any legislation affecting veterans as well as creating an ombuds office resulted in two new advisory groups. The minister, during that testimony, reluctantly promised reviews of the legislation every three or four months while creation of a veterans ombuds office would be tightly controlled by VAC.

The first legislative change took place six years after this committee published its report, "A Timely Tune-Up". Fourteen years later, key recommendations that would dramatically improve the lives of the most disabled veterans and their families remain neglected, including income loss to be set at 100% of military salary, be tax-free and be adjusted not merely to inflation but also to reflect the increases in salary that would come with a typical CAF career progression. These latter recommendations were reinforced by the two advisory groups as well as the ombuds office in 2020.

What has been most disheartening and a stain upon our sacrifices is to see government outright ignore its own recommendations, which would provide a key component of recognition: fair compensation.

I wish to once again express my appreciation to VAC for providing additional statistics that will help fill the picture by comparing disability injuries in multiple special duty areas. I promise to provide the committee with an updated chart soon.

The table I submitted to committee for my October 10 testimony shows that up to 32% of veterans who served in the seven SDAs cannot perform suitable gainful employment. Up to 49% suffer psychological injuries due to their service, and up to 90% have a lifelong disabling injury. These are casualties of military service, casualties of war, but they're often commemorated as an afterthought if at all.

For 70 years, we failed to grant them the transition benefits given to World War II veterans, who were covered under the insurance principle whether they served overseas or were domiciled here in Canada. How do we compensate for the tragic and consequentially painful and poor transition outcomes that continue to this day? How do we recognize the resulting suffering of family dysfunction, addictions, social isolation, lost career potential and suicide? How do we compensate the heartbreaking reality that almost half of our transitioning CAF veterans still feel that they don't belong to the communities or even the country for which they sacrificed?

I have provided committee with a proposal to help answer these difficult questions.

VAC policy has a long tradition of discriminating against the most disabled, replete with the irony that the department that is dedicating most of its resources to caring for the disabled is often inaccessible by the most disabled.

Government lawyers recently stated that “veterans have the responsibility to stay informed” and “veterans are encouraged to be proactive in the benefits and services available to them.”

How callous that a veteran spiralling into the darkness of PTSD and suicidal thoughts, suffering a marriage breakdown, or the shame and pain of a severe physical disability is expected to stay informed.

Three days ago, I tearfully discovered that the Pension Act was amended in 1971 so that all those injured in an SDA could apply for and collect disability pensions while they still served. I reached out to Louise, but she was likewise shocked. How do we compensate for the lost years of disability pensions?

Recognition through compensation is not just about what government calls “the deliverables”, but it's about the recognition of our limitations in accessing benefits—limitations that must be truthfully accommodated. The least we can do is legislate a duty to inform veterans in a meaningful way and in accordance with their disabilities.

I thank the committee, the wonderful staff attached to the committee and their gracious hospitality for hosting my son's school. My wife, Carolina, and my son, Wilfred, are the reasons that I'm still alive today.

Yet, after 25 years of calling for the independent identification of family members, my family cannot directly access Veterans Affairs' benefits. What is most disturbing is that the Veterans Well-being Act omits what the Pension Act clearly states, which is an obligation to my son.

The military is a very caring profession. We intensely care for the mission. We fiercely care for our comrades, our unit and the military. We profoundly care for our nation and its institutions, but we are strongly discouraged from caring for ourselves. We need all government to care for what so many of us cannot fight for: recognition and compensation. These are inseparable from a nation that truly commemorates our sacrifices.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bruyea. We salute your wife, who is in the room.

Lieutenant Richard, the floor is yours for your pending statement. Please go ahead.

[Lt (N) Louise Richard]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the committee for inviting me.

Thank you, Sean, for such an incredible opening statement.

I'm Louise Richard. I'm a retired medical officer and a lieutenant navy registered nurse. I served in the first Gulf War, the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

As Sean stated, I've been an advocate for way longer than I ever thought I would have to be, and the last place I thought I'd be today was here. This has taken a toll that no one here can understand.

Today, even with all the advocacy I've done through the years, my illnesses, my exhaustion with this country, National Defence and Veterans Affairs and every level of government we've had to deal with have exhausted me, and when I speak of me, I mean us.

I'm wearing red today, but not for any political affiliation or Canadian political party. I'm wearing the blood our Canadian men and women have shed on every Canadian's behalf—not just the blood, but the limbs, the wounds, the exposures, the invisible injuries and the trauma; it goes beyond the words that I can even express today.

I wasn't able to even write an opening statement for today because I've had COVID twice. The last time, I was positive for over two and a half months, and dealing with long COVID over and above everything else I'm dealing with was very difficult, so even being here today is a huge effort on my part, and I have Sean to thank for that.

You're incredible. Thank you.

When I went to the Persian Gulf War, I was 29 years old. I'm 63 now. I was a young officer and a keen triathlete. I had just completed postgraduate studies in mental health. I had just been posted here to Ottawa at the National Defence Medical Centre hospital we had at the time, and I was one of the few nurses chosen to go. I was very proud of that, but that pride soon dissipated to where I'm no longer proud. I'm proud of what I've done and of every person who is brave and courageous enough to join and wear the uniform. That has dwindled away for me.

I never chose to become an advocate. I became an advocate because I became ill very quickly, and in working at National Defence Medical Centre, I was witnessing directly the aftermath of our war, seeing casualties walk into that hospital and the abhorrent attitude that was offered to them.

I guess I'll leave it at that. Should I continue my little.... I don't know how much time I have for an opening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have the time. You have five minutes.

[Lt (N) Louise Richard]

Briefly, being a nurse is being one of the first to go to combat in a war, leaving from Trenton on a Hercules plane—not Club Med, not going to a resort but going to war. When we arrived in Saudi Arabia a Scud missile had hit the tarmac, so right away we had to put on our NBCW suits—nuclear, biological, chemical warfare suits—and our gas masks. The stress level was maximum. We had to unload in 20 minutes.

Already...there, I wasn't feeling well. Why? Because, before we even left Canada, we were over-inoculated with over 16 injections of various types that were never properly documented. Protocols were not followed. Over and above, when we arrived there, we got more injections. I guess we'll go into this more later, but my health...never restored.

I got through the war, came back ill, was belittled by my peers—minimized, ridiculed and labelled as a malingerer—and I ended up in a hospital bed at NDMC, very depressed and ill. That's where I realized that the career I was so looking forward to had ended. There was no way I was going to be able to continue as a career officer, and that's where my advocacy work started, from a hospital bed at NDMC.

I'll leave it at that for now. I think I've taken more than enough of my time. I'm ready for questions, with Sean's help.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Lieutenant Richard. I know that you made an effort to come to testify today, and I can tell you we deeply appreciate your testimony.

I also welcome one of our colleagues, Mr. Gerald Soroka, who is here with us.

To start the first round of questions, I'm pleased to invite Mr. Fraser Tolmie to go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for their testimony. I know that every time we start off we always say, “Thank you for your service.” I truly want you to know that I mean that genuinely.

After hearing your testimony today and the struggles you had, Ms. Richards, I want to let you know that you turned the tables on those who may have mocked you, because you are fighting a different fight. Your advocacy means that you are fighting for those who were also mocked, ridiculed and, maybe, left out, and so you're breaking through. Your being here means something to a lot of other people, and so I'm grateful. Thank you—and I genuinely mean that.

Continually—and I'm sorry, I will get to a couple questions here—being in this chair is not always an easy thing because we hear of this disconnect between how our military, which I've been a part of, believes in a mission: the freedom of this country, and that they're serving for a purpose and a reason.... I believe in that. Everybody around this table, it doesn't matter what party they're from, believes that. The disconnect is in how we treat our veterans.

It seems to be that everybody comes to the table and we all agree, but there's this disconnect between how the government and politicians feel and how veterans are being served. There's something in the middle that seems to be lost—and it can't be a translation thing. If you've been advocating for so many years, there has to be a real, fundamental problem within the organization here, and I believe it starts from the beginning.

Mr. Bruyea, I remember leaving the military. There was a half-day seminar at which we got some sandwiches and a cup of coffee, and, “If you need our help, here's a business card,” and that was it. No one knew what they were entitled to or what they could go through. In your experience, have you experienced that and, if so, how do we make this better for veterans to access services when they leave the military?

[Sean Bruyea]

That is such a profoundly important question. I'll talk about my experience, and then hopefully I can pull that together to give some recommendations of how to change that.

In addition to the fact that as a fundamental change in 1971, we officers, especially young, ambitious officers, tried to keep aware of these CANFORGENS. There were messages that came out regularly that told us what the news was that affected us.

I can tell you that I do not remember for the life of me, not only about the 1971 change that I could have applied for benefits when I returned from the Gulf War and started collecting them and be recognized for my sacrifice right away, but I also don't even remember them ever talking about Veterans Affairs. That's what veterans went through for 60 years. This is because the World War II veterans, for whatever reason, thought that every action that came after that was not the equivalent of what they sacrificed, even though the people domiciled in Canada were entitled to very similar benefits to those who served overseas.

For me, I can tell you that, for instance, when I got back.... I told you the story at the last committee that I was originally referred to a psychologist when I got back from war because I was diagnosed with combat stress reaction. In theatre, before I went back, I can tell you that the doctor treating me told me, I'm going to have to call your boss back in Canada. He was stationed at Bahrain at the time. The gist of the conversation they had was, yes, your young intelligence officer is suffering from combat stress reaction and this puts him in a position of compromising his security clearance. Okay. I was told that very plainly by the doctor.

I was already at the point of combat stress reaction. It's a nervous breakdown—acute. It doesn't have to become chronic if there's the right help available, but because I knew it wasn't safe to tell anyone what else I was suffering, I started closing up and I had to keep it secret. It manifested in all kinds of unhealthy ways. I didn't become an alcoholic, but I certainly went out on the weekends and drove home drunk very dangerously along Colonel By. I can tell you that not one relationship would last more than a month or so. I can tell you that I was very alone and my family didn't understand me. I would be offended by their lack of understanding and so I isolated from that. It was in an acute state. Had I been provided treatment and understanding...it became chronic.

On the availability of benefits when I was released five years later after the Gulf War, I still was never told about Veterans Affairs. I wasn't even told that I was entitled to SISIP. That's why SISIP retroactively awarded me, and five years later, not within the 120-day deadline but five years later, it retroactively awarded the benefits.

What about the cost in the meantime? Thank you for that money. What did I suffer in the meantime?

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Yes. There is another thing that you've just briefly touched on, and I want to share this as an observation about the disconnect. We as Canadians have the second largest landmass in the world. We're isolated. We go and get involved in conflicts overseas, and the gratitude that we receive from those nations, like the French, the Belgians, the Dutch and Kuwaitis, is completely different. It's different here because it never affects our shores, so there is something that's lost. I don't know how we change that culture for Canadians to recognize the sacrifice that we made.

Then when you come back and suffer those difficulties, people don't understand how to identify with them because they've not experienced them in their daily lives. They've not had to suffer or fight to protect their homes or streets.

I want to say thank you. I want to say thank you for your service.

I understand that there is a problem here. I don't know how we can fix that, but it has to start with saying thank you for what you've done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Tolmie.

Now, let's go to Ms. Lisa Hepfner, for six minutes, please.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I really appreciate my colleague, Mr. Tolmie's, compassionate way of thanking you for your service. I hope it doesn't become rote when we do thank veterans at the start of every meeting. We truly do appreciate your being here, particularly you, Lieutenant Richard, with your medical challenges. The fact that you're here is a true testament to your strength. Your words are really important and we really truly appreciate that you're here.

Before I go further, I want to pick up on that further, that conversation you were having because you did, I think, substantially talk in your opening statement about the inability to know what services are available and to access the benefits that are due to you.

You talked about your experience, but I'm wondering if you have ideas about the ideal. Ideally, what would it look like? How do we best provide and let veterans know what services are available to them?

You can both respond.

Go ahead first, Sean, and then we'll pass it over to Lieutenant Richard.

[Sean Bruyea]

I just want to refer to the first minister of Veterans Affairs, Ian Mackenzie, who said very clearly in World War II, in much anticipation that there would be need to help these people transition, that if we have the money to fight a war, we'd darn well better have money to help them in peace. The central factor seems to be that there's not enough money.

Veterans Affairs workers, if you meet them on an individual level, are wonderful, aren't they? Most of the ones I've met have been very co-operative. They are so overwhelmed with Treasury Board requirements to fill out forms. ADMs are overwhelmed with the requirements of the Treasury Board. Really, it goes down to the money. If they don't have the money to do the job, they keep getting blamed for failing to do the job, when the blame really comes to Parliament.

Parliament has to authorize the money so that it can have people go out and educate. I can tell you that in World War II, the workers worked overtime and on weekends. They went out to the fields to help people with their new farms. They hung up their coats and helped them hammer the new house they were building under the transition benefits that should have been afforded to our active service veterans after World War II. They went out of their way to teach family members about what they were going to deal with. They went out of their way to teach the public about what the sacrifices were.

I provided you guys that table of statistics because it's so important. That's the education that has to get out there.

What is the cost of war? Let's involve people in debate.

As you guys will know from the report, in 1950, we were all placed on active service, and we've been on active service ever since, but denied the benefits of active service during the transition. From that standpoint and that point of history on, we should have been making it very clear about and involving the public in a debate on each and every mission we sent people on. We should have been making sure that the money was there, not just for the Leopard tanks and the shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles, but for the workers to be there to coach us, help us and inform us of our benefits while we were still there.

You guys also worked on a culture change in the military. Some of you members sat on that committee. How much do you think we're an organization that stigmatizes anyone who isn't masculine and white? How much do you think that organization is going to accept someone who's broken and cannot do the job? That is the ultimate discrimination.

I cannot tell you how even someone with a sore ankle was immediately ostracized. To admit that you're weak and that you need Veterans Affairs benefits...there isn't a safe environment in the military to learn about it. We have to create a safe environment where they can absorb that information and be encouraged to apply for benefits.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

It's really important

Do you want to add anything, Lieutenant?

[Lt (N) Louise Richard]

I agree completely with what Sean said. You're right: We're not taught what happens if we're injured and what we may be entitled to. If we are released, what happens? At least, we weren't taught this back in the early nineties.

I was released in 1996, after nine and a half years of service. I was not granted a military pension. You need 10 years or more. I did not know that. Until I was released, I didn't even knock at Veterans Affairs' door because I didn't think it was the right thing to do. No one told us. I and so many others of our time just assumed you had to be out of the uniform before you could go and knock at Veterans Affairs' door.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

That's really important testimony. Thank you.

Part of this discussion, I'm finding, is about compensation for veterans, and part of it is about commemoration and honouring our veterans properly. Like many of my colleagues, I was in Normandy for the most recent commemoration of D-Day. Canadian flags were everywhere. We went to different ceremonies in different towns, and everywhere we went, crowds of French people came, brought their children and commemorated the Canadian veterans who were there 80 years before. It was truly important to them.

Do you think we do enough in Canada to commemorate our veterans? Should we invest more in the memory of what our soldiers have done?

[Sean Bruyea]

No. The interesting thing—

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I think my question is whether we should we invest more.

[Sean Bruyea]

Yes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Okay. I wanted to make sure....

[Sean Bruyea]

No, we don't do enough. Yes, we should invest more.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you for clarifying that.

[Sean Bruyea]

I mean, after World War II, there were approximately one million veterans, right? We now have 500,000 serving members and veterans, so you would think that, proportionally, Veterans Affairs would be the same size—50% of the veteran population. There were 30,000 Veterans Affairs employees after World War II. That was diminished quickly as the re-establishment benefits started to take effect, but it went down to 20,000. We should have 10,000 Veterans Affairs employees taking care of our veterans, not 3,000 with—as Louise pointed out to me the other day—almost half of them based in Charlottetown, far away from not only veterans but politics, right? This is the wrong place to be.

In terms of education, yes, we have to educate. That table has to get out there, as well as those statistics about what it costs to send people to war. I mean, 90% of SDA veterans...and some, depending on the mission, suffer a lifelong war casualty. This is insane that this information is not getting out there. Instead, we like to focus on the one day per year and call everyone a hero.

I can tell you that “hero” is the most shaming thing I can hear because, when I get home and am struggling with my symptoms, then I'm not the hero. I'm not what people expect me to be. I just want to be a human being and a Canadian who reintegrates into the society and is appreciated. Just like it was for veterans after World War II, I just want to work and people to be there to help me. I've always wanted to work, but the incentives are perverse that prevent me from working.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hepfner.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor for six minutes.