Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 31st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We will now begin the public portion of the meeting. Welcome.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motions adopted by the committee on March 9 and December 5, 2023, the committee is resuming its study on the recognition of Persian Gulf veterans and wartime service.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses. I would like to begin by welcoming the Honourable Bill Blair, Minister of National Defence. Also, from the Department of National Defence, we have General Jennie Carignan, chief of the defence staff, Canadian Armed Forces, and we wish her all the best in this new role. We also have Major‑General Erick Simoneau, deputy commander of military personnel command, who is no stranger to the committee and whom we salute.

Minister, you have five minutes for your opening statement. Then we'll ask you some questions.

The floor is yours.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would also extend my sincere gratitude to the members of this committee for the kind invitation to appear before you today. I look forward to the opportunity.

I would like to begin my remarks by stating quite unequivocally that Canada is immensely grateful for the services of all members of the Canadian Armed Forces, and we particularly want to acknowledge our veterans. This includes the more than 4,000 Canadians who served in the Persian Gulf region in 1990 and 1991. As part of a coalition of countries, those service members helped to remove the invading forces of Iraq from neighbouring Kuwait. Following the war, they served on peacekeeping missions and helped enforce embargoes in the region. In the face of danger, they each showed courage in defending our most cherished values of peace, freedom and democracy.

I recently had the privilege and opportunity to meet with two members of the Persian Gulf War veterans association, Sammy Sampson and Michael McGlennon. I know that this committee has also heard from them. I want to take the opportunity as well to thank them for their service and their advocacy.

I also know that the committee heard from the Minister of Veterans Affairs earlier this week. In relation to the study of the recognition of Persian Gulf veterans, I am here today to provide a brief overview of how military service is currently classified. I will also highlight some of the services that the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces offer to current military members. However, I'd like to make one thing very clear: We all have an obligation to those who served our country.

I work very closely with the Minister of Veterans Affairs, who is also the Associate Minister of National Defence. I have heard from many of our veterans how difficult it can be sometimes to get pushed from pillar to post between the Minister of Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs. Let me state very clearly that I believe it is a shared obligation and responsibility to support all members of the Canadian Armed Forces and their veterans. It is the government's responsibility and not any one individual ministry's.

I'd also like to draw the committee's attention to key definitions that are relevant to today's meeting. The Pension Act defines service during World War I and World War II as “service in a theatre of actual war”, because there was a declaration. Similarly, the Pension Act provides a specific definition for service in the Korean War. The Veterans Well-being Act defines “special duty service”. Under sections 69 and 70 of the Veterans Well-being Act, it is my responsibility as the Minister of National Defence, in consultation with the Minister of Veterans Affairs, to designate military service as either “special duty area” or “special duty service”. To determine which classification to use, we conduct a high-level assessment of the hardship and risk factors in that operation before members are deployed. While an initial assessment is made by professionals, the hardship and risk levels can be adjusted as each mission evolves.

The classification of military service ensures that members and veterans receive the benefits they are entitled to from National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada. It also means that as hardship and risk levels are adjusted, members' compensation and benefits can be adjusted as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Minister, can you please slow down for our interpreters?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I apologize, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

No problem.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

In one respect, I want to be very respectful of the five minutes you gave me, but at the same time, I will try to be kind to your translators.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you. You still have two minutes.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you.

However, applying these classifications to different deployments should not indicate that we value the efforts of our members and veterans more or less, depending on where and when they serve. Our appreciation must always be for everyone who wears the uniform, and it must be unyielding.

Additionally, reclassifying those who served in the Persian Gulf on special duty service to mirror the definitions for service during the first and second world wars or in the Korean War would not necessarily change the benefits they are eligible to receive. This is because these veterans are already eligible for some of the highest levels of benefits through Veterans Affairs Canada for injuries arising from their service.

When it comes to offering support for our armed forces, National Defence is responsible for currently serving members of the Canadian Armed Forces. This is a responsibility that I want to assure you we take very seriously. National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces offer a comprehensive framework of benefits and services, including those related to mental health, illness and injury, and transitioning out of service.

For example, the CAF runs 31 primary care clinics, offering specialized in-house mental health services, social workers, mental health nurses, psychologists, psychiatrists, addictions counsellors and mental health chaplains who are on site to provide the care and support our members need. When a service member is ill or injured, the Canadian Armed Forces transition group provides support for recovery, rehabilitation and reintegration within the forces wherever that is possible. We have also developed a five-step process to assist military members to transition to civilian life, whether they are medically or non-medically released.

The Government of Canada wishes to express—and I personally want to express—its sincere gratitude to all Canadian Forces members who served in the Persian Gulf War. Their efforts, and the dangers they faced while deployed, cannot go unnoticed or be allowed to be forgotten. It's vital that we recognize their dedication, service and sacrifice. That's why we will continue to work with other departments, like Veterans Affairs Canada, to recognize the enormous sacrifices made by those in uniform.

I am personally looking forward to the recommendations of this committee. I very much value the work of the committee in hearing from witnesses and coming forward with recommendations. I want to assure every member of this committee that your recommendations will be given every due consideration.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Minister. We hope so, too.

Now, let's start the first round of questions. I'll remind colleagues to stay with six minutes each. Try to direct your questions through the chair in order to help our interpreters.

I'll start with Mr. Richards for six minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Minister, in your opening statement, as it is on many of the government websites and in other places, you referred to it as “the Gulf War”.

Do you personally believe it was a war?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, I think, in common language usage, it was a “shooting war”. There was danger, and Canada participated quite fulsomely in that effort. I recall very well that, at the time, this is how we spoke about it.

Also—as I'm sure you're already aware, Blake—there are certain legal definitions for what constitutes a war under the two relevant pieces of legislation this committee is examining today in relation to that particular conflict.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I understand. I don't want to get too much into that right now, in the interest of time.

It sounds to me as though, in your personal opinion, at least, you would call it a war. I get the differences in legislation, but you would agree that it was a war.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'm also mindful of the colloquial representation of that conflict as a war, because we've also referred to the “Afghanistan war”, for example.

However, it certainly is relevant to this conversation. There are legal definitions that need to be considered.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I understand.

You mentioned in your opening remarks that you recently had a chance to meet with some of the Persian Gulf veterans. I know they've been trying to get a meeting for a while, so I appreciate that they were finally able to get one.

Can you share with us the outcome of that meeting and what you had to say to those veterans when you met with them? Was it the same as what we heard in your opening statement today, or was there something different?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Actually, it was a very good conversation, Blake. I was very grateful that we had the opportunity to sit down together. It was important for me to have the opportunity to hear about their experience of service. They also, I think, were very effective advocates for others who have served in that conflict, as well, regarding some of the challenges those veterans faced. That was very important for me to listen to and hear.

Also, I took every opportunity to acknowledge and recognize their service and our obligations to them. We talked, as well, quite extensively about what they perceive to be disparities or inequities in the services they—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'm quite familiar with what they've been saying. We've heard from them a number of times. I've talked to them myself.

I'm more interested in what you had to say, because the Minister of Veterans Affairs came to this committee on Monday and told us that, in her opinion, it was clearly your responsibility to make this decision—or not make this decision. She was very clear about that. What you said to us this morning is that you think it's a shared responsibility. You think it's some entity called “the government”, rather than putting the responsibility on somebody within that government to make a decision.

What did you tell the Persian Gulf veterans? Was it that, or was it something else?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No. Perhaps I was not as clear as I'd hoped to be.

I tried to assure them—because they've had the experience of going to various ministries, trying to get answers and support—that I very much recognize and acknowledge my responsibility and authorities within the current legislation. I wanted to assure them that I wouldn't be sending them around...and that they were talking to us and we were listening to them. I wanted to assure them, as this committee does, I think, that all parties are represented here. I wanted them to be assured that we are listening.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay.

You mentioned that you're anxiously awaiting the results of this study, and I appreciate that.

I guess the question I would ask is this: Should this committee make the recommendation that this service be designated a “wartime service”? Will you commit to us that you will make a recommendation to the cabinet that this in fact occurred?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'm very much looking forward to the work of this committee. Frankly, I think your recommendations will be useful to us.

However, I also want to look at the nature of your deliberations. For example, regarding the 2006 legislation we're talking about, I went back and looked through Hansard and saw what debate and discussions took place, in both the House of Commons and the Senate, because it's very informative to understand the nature of the testimony that's been received here and the discussions that have taken place.

As I've tried to assure this committee, I will give all due consideration to the recommendations, but I'm not able to commit to an outcome before you've even made the recommendations.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I know that many veterans will be disappointed if this committee makes that recommendation. You've indicated, as has your associate minister, that this is a responsibility that you could make a decision on. I know they'll be disappointed if they don't see that outcome if this committee recommends it, so I certainly hope that you will give it more than just due consideration.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

To be clear, my understanding of the legislation is that I do have the authority, and I'm quite prepared to exercise it, in designating a conflict under the two categories available in the legislation, but I would not be in a position to retroactively declare a war. That would be an executive decision.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Do I have one minute?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I'm going to give that minute to Mr. Dowdall.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Dowdall, go ahead, please.