Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 31st, 2024

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, sir, I can think of a number of different conflicts in which Canadian Armed Forces members have served over the past several decades that were not declared wars by the Government of Canada—there's actually a legal process for the declaration of war—but which we were sending members of the Canadian Armed Forces into, conflicts where their lives were at risk. Certainly, there were the conflicts in Afghanistan and in Kosovo where a number of our people were exposed to battle conditions.

I think it's important that we acknowledge, recognize and commemorate that, and that we provide those veterans with all of the support that they need and deserve with regard to those conflicts. However, the actual legal ability to retroactively declare those conflicts, in the legal context, as war is somewhat constrained.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

In my opinion, the commemorations of people who took part in the Gulf War are quite minimal. On Remembrance Day, will they be named and thanked for their service?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I was speaking at a Remembrance Day ceremony in my community, sir. I am more than happy to acknowledge and recognize the service of every member of the Canadian Armed Forces who has served in conflict and even those who supported them in serving in that conflict because I think they're deserving of our recognition and respect.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Do you think the government will do that here in Ottawa on Remembrance Day?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I will try to make the point and share with them.

Unfortunately, I will be in Toronto that day because I have.... In Toronto, there's a cenotaph that I always attend, and it's my obligation to be there. However, passing that on.... I think it's important to acknowledge all of the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces who have served in conflict; it's important to thank them for their service and to commemorate their service.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I really like what you're saying and I hope it comes to fruition. Clearly, these veterans—and there are a few of them behind you—are not being properly recognized. What we are hearing and what is being communicated is that there are two types of war. When you've been on the front lines, it's not easy to hear that. When you have suffered major injuries and set aside your family, it's not easy to hear that.

The committee held nine meetings on this topic for a total of more than 14 hours of testimony. The committee tried to invite all types of veterans. The veterans we heard from at committee were unanimous. Witnesses who participated in the Gulf War or who are familiar with it were unanimous about the fact that there was inequity between the two systems.

Do you agree that there is inequity between the two systems, especially when it comes to finances?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I've inquired very specifically about that because I want to make sure that we support all our veterans, of every conflict, appropriately.

There are some differences between the Pension Act and the Veterans Well-being Act. However, I have inquired, and I'm sure Major-General Simoneau could provide you with more information. I'm assured that they're not the same but that there is parity between the systems. In many respects, the legislation passed in 2006 provides additional supports.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Minister, in the discussions that have taken place in committee, the blame for this legislation has been placed on the Department of National Defence. Do you think it is possible to amend this legislation?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Yes, of course. That's the nature of legislation.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Are you prepared to do that?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

The law is supposed to be a living tree, and that's one of the reasons that the work of this committee and the work of Parliament are very important. All legislation can be made better.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Are you prepared to do that?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Well, I'm very much looking forward, as I've said, to the outcome of the work of this committee. I think this committee would also recognize.... The moral imperative, I think, is clear. I've also listened to the veterans, and I find their testimony and advocacy very compelling. However, at the same time, changing the legislation needs to be done in a thoughtful and well-informed—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You have to look at the financial aspects.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—way.

There are some funding implications, but I think they're the least important of these considerations, because the Veterans Well-being Act already provides a lot of support to those veterans. I think in many respects, they are all receiving acknowledgement of their service.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Minister.

Now, I'd like to invite Ms. Blaney for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair, and as always, everything is through the chair.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses today and thank them all so much for their service. They've all provided services in different ways. Thank you for being here to talk about this really important issue that matters to so many.

As I've sat through the testimony in this process, I've been reflective of one of the challenges, which is that the reality these veterans experience and live with every day does not seem to be reflected in the commemoration and resources that they receive. When we come down to that, I think that is just the honest truth. We know there's something there that's broken, and we all need to work together to fix it.

I think in true military fashion, the veterans, the Persian Gulf War veterans, are here not only to talk about their own experience, but they also want to see a process that includes all modern-day veterans. That is important as well. When we're looking at this, legislation is the key, and it is a process of reviewing what peace, conflict and war are. Legislatively, those are different things that we can make really clear, but unfortunately, the experience doesn't seem to fit the categorization.

My first question is for you, Minister. You said you've met with the veterans. I'm wondering if you could talk about whether there were any particular discussions around legislation. Are you prepared to explore that with your own cabinet moving forward?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Rachel.

I think there are two really important issues. I think my first obligation is to make sure that all of our veterans, regardless of what conflict they served in, receive all the supports they require and deserve and have earned from us. I had some inquiries of them of what they perceived to be the disparities between what was available to veterans who were covered because their conflict was covered under the Veterans Well-being Act versus those who were covered under the Pension Act.

Notwithstanding that those three conflicts were characterized quite differently from the subsequent conflicts, I think our first obligation is to make sure that we provide the supports that are necessary. I had a lot of conversations about what they perceived to be the differences in eligibility and supports that were available to them. We really need to make sure that there is parity, that we treat everybody the way they need and deserve to be treated.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Sir, I don't want to interrupt. I try to be careful because the interpreters have a hard time when we're both speaking at the same time.

If I could bring you back to that idea of legislation, that would be helpful.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

As we look at the Veterans Well-being Act, if there are deficiencies—nobody has ever passed legislation that was perfect—I think it would be entirely appropriate that we should go back and look and see if we can make it better.

I look forward to your recommendations on that, because I'm in complete agreement that we should make sure that we provide our veterans with all the supports that they require and that they've earned from us.

Also, there's this other really important issue you raise about commemoration, acknowledgement and respect for their service. That's in many respects a more complicated question. We can deal with the compensation and the supports for our veterans, and I think we're in complete agreement that it should be as good as we can possibly do. On respect and commemoration, I'm also in complete agreement that we should show complete respect for their service and that we should properly commemorate it and honour it. Legislatively, retroactively declaring certain conflicts in a certain way, or all conflicts perhaps more generally, is something that we need to think about. These were not wars. Canada did not...Parliament did not declare a war against....

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much.

I understand that. However, I would say, Minister, that conflicts across the world are changing very quickly and rapidly and have been for many years. Therefore, especially looking at the framework of how the world is working, and our relationship with NATO, declaring a war is going to happen a lot less.

We need to figure that out. That's probably the crux of the issue here. When we ask people to serve, when we ask them to go and experience a war zone and thus to see what Canadians at home will not have to see and experience in the same way, we need to recognize that when they come home and to make sure that they get their supports.

Commemoration is really important. If you ask average school-age children right now, they would know World War I, World War II, and maybe the Korean War, but I don't think they would know the other ones in the same way. That means, as a country, we have not done our due diligence to make sure people understand that in our country there are people walking around doing that.

I don't have a lot of time. You said you cannot go back retroactively. In your role with this issue, and in the reality of all modern veterans, what can you do?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I have the authority, and I'm quite prepared to exercise it, to declare a conflict either as a special duty operation or special duty area. We all have a responsibility to elevate Canadians' understanding, appreciation and respect for the service of all of our armed forces members.

I don't disagree with you. The nature of conflict continues to evolve and we need to recognize the impact that conflict can have on all members of the Canadian Armed Forces, and, subsequently, on our veterans. We need to continue to explore ways in which we can honour their service and find ways...

I've listened very carefully to veterans. They make very strong points. Their advocacy is quite compelling. I'm quite willing to work with them, and with all of you to find ways in which we can honour and respect them.

Some of it may require legislative change, and that's the responsibility of Parliament. I'm trying to operate within the authorities currently bestowed upon me by existing Canadian legislation, but there are some limits to my ability to do what you would like me to do.

I would therefore ask this committee to consider what legislative tools might be required to actually accomplish that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Minister, and Ms. Blaney.

Mr. Tolmie, you have five minutes.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today, and thank you, Major General, for being here.

This committee met with the Minister of Veterans Affairs four days ago, who is also the Associate Minister of National Defence. In her own words and her opinion, she felt that the Gulf War was a war. I've clearly heard today, in your testimony, that in your opinion the Gulf War was a war.

Is that correct?