Thank you.
Evidence of meeting #113 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was veterans.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #113 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was veterans.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you very much, Mr. Ross.
Now it's over to the second vice-chair of the committee.
Go ahead, Mr. Desilets. You have six minutes.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for accepting our invitation to appear before the committee.
Ms. Teillet, you said that indigenous veterans didn't have the same rights as other veterans.
Could you explain what exactly you meant by that?
Historian, Canadian War Museum
When I said that indigenous veterans didn't have the same rights, it's more broadly about indigenous people not having the same rights. Status Indians returning from the First World War and the Second World War were wards of the state, so they did not have the right to vote.
For example, when conscription for the First World War and the Second World War came up, there was a lot of resistance among indigenous communities, and first nations communities in particular. They said, “We are the wards. How can we be compelled to go and fight if we are the supposed child and you are the supposed parent, in essence? How can you compel us?” During the First World War, there was an exemption made due to resistance by first nations communities. They suggested that treaty Indians could not be compelled by conscription. That was not successful during the Second World War, with the National Resources Mobilization Act.
Does that answer your question?
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
In a way, that answers it.
We know that indigenous people made a significant contribution to the war effort, but there was a dark side. We also know that thousands of acres of land were taken from indigenous people during the wars.
Am I wrong?
Historian, Canadian War Museum
Yes, at least 85,000 acres of reserve land were purchased by the federal government during the First World War for the settlement of non-indigenous veterans when they would return home. Unfortunately, the funds used to purchase that land didn't even go to the communities specifically, to the bands; they were held in trust by the government to spend as it saw fit.
This is a theme that exists throughout history, especially with status Indians, with this stereotype, this paternalistic approach that suggests that indigenous people don't know how to spend money and don't know how to be responsible with funds, and so, we, as the government, will hold on to that money for them. That is seen as one of many reasons why some indigenous people did not receive access to pensions and benefits, because it was seen as, well, they don't need that much money. It was a very paternalistic approach towards indigenous people.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
What do you make of that?
Why did the government purchase that land at the time?
I have trouble wrapping my head around that. Call me naive, but it's basically theft.
Historian, Canadian War Museum
Yes, it is, absolutely. I think it is hard to understand.
However, this is where I come back to what I initially said. If we're looking at the history of indigenous veterans, it is inextricably linked to the treatment by the government of indigenous people overall. This is just one element of that treatment. When I mentioned in my talk that initially in the First World War, indigenous people were dissuaded from enlisting, eventually that policy was reversed, in part because military service was seen as a tool of assimilation. This was seen as a way to get indigenous people to integrate into mainstream society, to enfranchise, to give up their treaty rights and their status. This is all part of the history of the government and the Crown's approach to indigenous people. This is just a small part of colonialism: colonialism in the British Crown, and then Canada's approach towards indigenous people. However, it's hard to wrap your mind around, for sure.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
During the Second World War, did people enlist voluntarily?
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
You mentioned the committee's 2019 report, so I assume you read the recommendations in the report.
Can you tell me whether the report made any difference?
Did anything come of the recommendations?
Historian, Canadian War Museum
I did not get a chance to read the recommendations. I read through the historical section, so I don't actually know what the recommendations were, but I can say that the historical foundation from the report is solid.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
If you could give the committee one recommendation to address what indigenous veterans experienced and continue to experience, what would it be?
Historian, Canadian War Museum
I would say the most important thing would be to talk to the veterans themselves, or the groups that are representing them. Almost all indigenous governments and communities have veterans' organizations. There's a First Nations Veterans Council with the Assembly of First Nations. I believe almost all, if not all, of the Métis governments have veterans' organizations. They deal directly with these veterans and would have a really good idea, I think, of the needs and the challenges.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Mr. Desilets.
Now I'd like to invite Ms. Blaney for six minutes, please.
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you so much, Chair.
I thank both of our witnesses. Mr. Ross, I want to thank you for your service.
I'll go to you first, Ms. Teillet. I really appreciate your testimony today, and I think it's really important.
I think of the first nations people who lost status because of their service. I come to it from a very personal experience. My granny was in residential school in Lejac, and they married her off at 16 without any consent from her. Of course, you immediately lose your status. For my granny, what that meant was that when her father was dying, she couldn't go home without permission from the Indian agent.
I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what the impact was when these veterans came home and they couldn't participate in their community in the same way if they gave up their status.
Historian, Canadian War Museum
In my understanding of the research that I've done, in large part—and I said this in my presentation—generally speaking, access to supports was not equal. But there were indigenous veterans who did receive supports, and, by and large, they were people who were participating willingly or unwillingly in the assimilation agenda. They were people who were willing to, potentially—as I believe it says in the initial veterans report that you have for this committee—move to a specific community, willing to enfranchise and lose their status. That can be a disconnect from culture, from community.
On the other hand, if veterans did not choose to give that up, to leave their communities, then they didn't receive supports and they were cut off. They had to rely on their Indian agent for information of how to access benefits and pensions, and that was often not forthcoming. I think that's a real issue, for sure.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
You were very clear about the area of your study, and I appreciate that, but you talked a lot about systemic discrimination and racism. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on how the systemic discrimination and racism continue forward and what impacts they may have had on the current realities that veterans face.
Historian, Canadian War Museum
As a historian, I tend to think in the past. I don't think I have an answer that could do your question justice. I'm sorry.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
That's fair enough. Thank you.
I'm going to go to Mr. Ross.
I really appreciated your sharing your story with us. The first thing is that I want to make sure we're clear about what the LGBT purge was. Could you do that? I know it's hard to sum it up really briefly, but I think it's really important that there be clarity for the report on what that is.
As an Individual
Sure, I'll do the elevator pitch.
The LGBT purge, from the mid-1950s up until 1996, was the systemic discrimination against queer people within the federal civil service, the military and the RCMP. It included investigations, interrogations and sometimes just harassment. Thousands of people were fired from their jobs. Most people, like myself, received an honourable discharge that said, “not advantageously employable due to homosexuality”. It was tied into the McCarthy era. Canada continued it until it was ended by a court case in 1992 by Michelle Douglas.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you so much for that.
In your particular story, which you shared with us earlier, it sounded like quite a horrific and terrifying experience. I'm wondering, as a Métis person dealing with this in the military, how was that for you? I would expect that, from a queer perspective and from a Métis experience perspective, it would have a really particular impact. I'm wondering if you could share that with the committee.
As an Individual
Yes, certainly, at the time, it was more the impact for me as a queer person. That was the focus of the investigation, and that was the challenge. As I moved along in my life, though, the further challenge, as I looked for support, was that I'm a veteran, I'm gay and I'm Métis. Try to find a service provider who has the proficiency to work with a queer Métis veteran. I can pick one lane. I can usually find somebody who's Métis, or I can find somebody who works with veterans, or I can find somebody who works with queer people. It's rare that you can find two of those together, and almost impossible to find all three of those together. So you always have to put two of your identities aside to get support for any one of your identities. That's a real challenge right now.
Providing cultural safety for service providers, though, is one way around that, so it doesn't always fall on the individual to have to explain to somebody what a Métis person is and what the health disparities for Métis people are, or what the complications are for somebody who's gay. What are the services provided for somebody who's a veteran if I go to a queer service provider? Those are the real challenges that are faced within those three distinct communities.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
What we've heard very clearly from you is that really having an opportunity to come together with other indigenous veterans and having a clear perspective from the collective would be very helpful for services for VAC.
Can you talk about what you've heard from the work that you've been doing within the indigenous veterans community and what you feel would be appropriate for VAC to start hearing about?
Liberal