Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 4th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We are resuming the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, January 29, 2024, the committee is beginning its study on the experience of indigenous veterans and Black veterans.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Please keep in mind that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For this hour, the witnesses are Mr. Todd Ross, who is joining us by video conference from New Brunswick as an individual; and Ms. Danielle Teillet, a historian who is with us today from the Canadian War Museum.

I'd like to thank you for accepting our invitation to appear before our committee.

I'm going to ask Mr. Ross to give his opening remarks first.

Mr. Ross, you have five minutes. We will then hear from Ms. Teillet, followed by questions and answers.

Mr. Ross, the floor is yours for five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Todd Ross, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon.

[Witness spoke in Michif and provided the following text:]

Taanshi kiyawaaw. Wabinaquot d-ishinihkaason—Aeñ Michif niya.

[English]

My name is Todd Ross. I introduced myself with my spirit name in Michif. I'm joining you today from the unceded and unsurrendered lands of the Wolastoqiyik in Menahquesk, now known as Saint John. I'm a Red River Métis, I'm a veteran, I'm two-spirited and I'm a citizen of the Métis Nation of Ontario.

I want to thank the committee and the members for creating this opportunity to speak on the experiences of indigenous veterans. I bring a unique experience as a two-spirit, Métis veteran who was part of the LGBT purge.

I want to chat with you today about my observations on funding for indigenous-specific services.

I served from December 1987 to June 1990. From the beginning of 1989 to mid-1990, I was under investigation for security concerns. I was part of what is now known as the LGBT purge, and I was offered an honourable discharge that stated I was “not advantageously employable due to homosexuality”. When I was released in 1990, I was told I was not a veteran and I would never receive veteran services, so I did not engage in any veteran services for the next 25 years.

It was my connection to the Métis that brought me back to the veteran family. When I lived in Toronto, I became engaged with the Métis Nation of Ontario and served as the chair of the Toronto and York Region Métis Council. Early in my involvement, I received a call from the late Joe Paquette. Joe was a Métis elder who served as the president of the Métis Nation of Ontario veterans' council. He called me up one day and we had a long talk. He asked why I wasn't involved with the Métis veterans.

I explained my experience with the LGBT purge and my fear of engaging with veterans as a queer person. I was told upon release that I was not a veteran. I didn't feel like a veteran and I would not feel welcome within any veteran community as a queer person. He responded—he lectured me, actually—that a veteran is a veteran is a veteran. With open arms, I was welcomed into the Métis veterans' council as a member, and he invited me to march with the Métis veterans at the Louis Riel Day ceremony at Queen's Park.

For the first time in 25 years, I put on my beret and marched in a parade. This was uncomfortable for me in the beginning, and I still feel trepidation when connecting with other veterans, but the Métis veterans' council has been incredibly supportive. Since that time, I've had a few opportunities to connect with other indigenous veterans and see the value of those opportunities to connect for engagement, ceremony and healing.

In 2017, I was able to attend the 100th anniversary of Vimy in Ottawa alongside other Métis veterans. This gathering provided an opportunity to meet, to share experiences and to learn about the involvement of the Métis people in the First World War. Part of the trip even included a visit to the Canadian War Museum, where we were able to see the indigenous contributions on display.

In 2013, I was invited to travel to the National Indigenous Peoples Day events in Winnipeg, alongside Algonquins of Pikwakanagan First Nation veteran Wendy Jocko, to represent veterans at the APTN live event. We interacted with numerous indigenous veterans over the two days, and were even able to bring some of the veterans to the Veteran Affairs services table to ensure that they got connected.

Earlier this year, I attended the 80th anniversary of the D-Day landings on Juno Beach. I was there on behalf of the Rainbow Veterans of Canada, but was pleased to be alongside representatives from other indigenous veteran groups. These connections were again invaluable, and the inclusion not only highlighted the contributions of indigenous people in these conflicts, but provided space for ceremony, for healing and for recognition.

In August this year, VAC supported a 2SLGBTQI+ veterans forum in Fredericton, New Brunswick. At the event, we were able to invite Wolastoqey Grand Chief Ron Tremblay to lead a talking circle with two-spirit veterans and other LGBTQI+ veterans. It was an incredible experience for all who participated, and I believe it was the first time I've been able to be in a ceremonial space with other queer indigenous veterans.

Each of these examples highlights opportunities to connect with first nations, Inuit and Métis veterans, opportunities for engagement, opportunities for ceremony and opportunities for healing. Connections to community are extremely important in creating opportunities for holistic healing.

Although I'm not directly involved with the governance of the Métis veterans, I know a barrier to more inclusion is the lack of available funding to support indigenous veteran groups. There are funds that could be used to reduce barriers by bringing Métis veterans together in community and reducing barriers to connect with other indigenous veterans organizations.

I want to point out that the relationship with the VAC leadership team has been stellar. Through my volunteer work as a veteran, I've always felt a strong partnership.

I'm incredibly thankful to VAC for the opportunities it has provided for 2SLGBTQI+ veterans and women veterans to gather and share experiences. I'm not aware of similar opportunities for indigenous veterans or specifically for first nations, Inuit, or Métis veterans to gather as distinctive communities, but this is something I would recommend.

I will leave it there, Mr. Chair, so that I can speak during questions to some of my own personal experiences in accessing veteran services. Recognizing the amount of time, I'll pass the floor back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ross. It's interesting to hear about your career, your courage and your story.

We'll now go to Ms. Danielle Teillet. She's a historian.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

[Danielle Teillet, Historian, Canadian War Museum]

Taanshi kiyawaaw. Hello.

My name is Danielle Teillet. I am Red River Métis and settler, originally from Treaty 1 territory. I now live here on unceded and unsurrendered Algonquin Anishinabe territory. I'm also the inaugural historian of indigenous military history at the Canadian War Museum.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me here today to speak and contribute to this important study.

As a historian, I can offer an overview of the experiences of indigenous veterans of the two world wars—that's my area of expertise—though I'm not well positioned to speak to contemporary issues, as Todd Ross just did.

Understanding the historical context of indigenous military service can provide us with crucial insights into present-day issues. As you can imagine, five minutes can only scratch the surface of this complex history, which is already quite well documented in the committee's 2019 report on indigenous veterans and other reports.

To understand the challenges indigenous service people faced, it's critical to consider the broader context of how indigenous people were treated in general through systemic discrimination and colonial policies and legislation. The government and society's treatment of indigenous veterans was inextricably linked to the treatment of indigenous people in general.

The number of indigenous people to serve in 20th century conflicts is elusive. Approximately 4,000 status Indians served for Canada in the First World War, and an estimated 4,200 served in the Second World War. Thousands more non-status first nations, Inuit and Métis people enlisted without official recognition of their indigeneity.

There were certain barriers that shaped the enlistment and service of indigenous people during this era. For example, during the First World War, initially first nations people were dissuaded by the government from enlisting. This was based partly on unfavourable and racist depictions in popular literature at the time, which led to a paternalistic logic that “Germans might refuse to extend...the [supposed] privileges of civilized warfare” to first nations soldiers.

In the Second World War, recruitment for the navy and air force initially required enlistees to be “of pure European descent and of the White Race.” Restrictive policies like these were not applied universally, and as casualties mounted during both wars, these types of barriers were abandoned in an effort to boost recruitment.

For many indigenous individuals who served during this era, their wartime service was the first time they had experienced a sense of equality with their white settler peers, but they would return to Canada after their service to the same discrimination they had known before they enlisted. Indigenous veterans did not generally receive equal treatment after returning to civilian life. Status Indian veterans, specifically, returned home to life as wards of the state.

Restrictions such as the prohibition on the sale of alcohol to status Indians meant that many first nations veterans were not able to participate in Legion activities, since liquor was served at many functions. Moreover, the right to vote federally did not come to status Indian men until 1960. They did not have the full rights and benefits of citizenship under Canada's Indian Act but had enlisted to go to war for Canada anyway.

There was a shared feeling by many indigenous veterans that there was a disconnect between the significance of their wartime service and sacrifices and the political, economic and social realities they returned home to. This was, in large part, because they were excluded in many cases from accessing veteran supports. Pensions and benefits such as land and financial grants that were set up to support veterans after both wars were notionally available to all veterans; however, most indigenous claims were denied.

Some veterans even returned home from the First World War to find that the reserve lands of their communities had shrunk or disappeared entirely. The federal government acquired more than 85,000 acres of reserve land in western Canada for the settlement of non-indigenous veterans after the war.

These injustices had lasting impacts on many indigenous veterans, some of whom went on to organize politically and lobby for indigenous and veterans' rights after their service. These experiences are well documented in the literature and in interviews with indigenous veterans, including through the Canadian War Museum's “In Their Own Voices” project, which includes dozens of interviews with indigenous-identified veterans.

Hopefully, this very brief historical overview has provided some context as you explore more contemporary issues in this study. The challenges that indigenous veterans faced in the post-world war era's discriminatory social, legislative and policy structures persisted for a long time, as did the lack of recognition they experienced.

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Teillet.

I know that five minutes is a really short time, but it's important for us to listen to you. You may know that we had a study on women veterans, and we issued 42 recommendations. We said that we should have a study on indigenous and Black veterans to see what's going on.

Now we're going to start the first round of questions. It's going to be for six minutes each. I invite Mr. Blake Richards, who is the vice-chair of the committee.

Go ahead, Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you to both of you for your testimony.

I'm going to start with you, Ms. Teillet.

Some of the historical things that you shared with us are shocking to hear. When we hear about that kind of discrimination, it's hard for us to even fathom, in today's day and age, some of the types of discrimination you were talking about, especially when you're talking about people who went to serve their country despite the fact that maybe their country didn't really acknowledge them and their backgrounds.

What I'd like to do, though, is jump a little closer to the present. This committee previously studied the experience of indigenous veterans. Unfortunately, as has often been the case with this government, they accepted a number of the recommendations that this committee made and then never followed through with them. This practice of not keeping promises is, I think, really at the core of the conversation around reconciliation.

I want your thoughts on how damaging it is, how demoralizing it is to first nations, Inuit and Métis people to see a government acknowledge their issues, promise to fix them and then never bother to follow through.

[Danielle Teillet]

That's a great point. Obviously, I'm not a veteran myself. I can't speak for others, although I have studied numerous interviews and oral histories with indigenous veterans.

I think there's real frustration. Some of it is about financial supports, but it's not just about that. It's about recognition of the contributions that they've made. I think reconciliation is a process. It's not a one-and-done, and it's not something that can be an event and then we're finished with it. I think that's where some of the frustration is coming from.

There are veterans, and there are, in some cases, residential school survivors who are also veterans. They're implementing the truth part of “truth and reconciliation”, and I think that it's on us as institutions to implement the reconciliation part and to follow through. I think it's a lot easier to say the right things than it is to follow through and do the right things.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Certainly it is, and it's important that when someone makes a promise, they follow through with it. Thank you for highlighting that.

Mr. Ross, I will turn to you.

First of all, thank you for your service. Thank you for your perseverance. I appreciate that you had others help to push you to get involved in the veteran community, and the veteran community is better for you being a part of it. Thank you for taking the advice that a veteran is a veteran is a veteran, because it's very true.

I believe that you've either served on the board of or been involved with a couple of different organizations that deal with housing issues for vulnerable populations. Is that correct?

[Todd Ross]

Yes, I have served in the past.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I hear a lot these days about homeless veterans. There are more and more organizations cropping up to fill the needs for housing for veterans who are finding themselves underhoused or homeless.

One thing that I hear sometimes, fairly regularly in fact, is that there are veterans out there who have, in some cases, thousands of dollars' worth of benefits that might be available to them from Veterans Affairs, but they're unable to access them because they're either not aware of them or they don't have an address or a way to access My VAC Account. They don't have any way to access those kinds of things.

I wonder if you could just talk, from your experience, about dealing with housing issues. For someone, particularly a veteran who's suffering from mental health issues or physical ailments, can cumbersome bureaucratic processes and paperwork stand as a barrier to their being able to access the help they need?

[Todd Ross]

Thank you for the question.

My experience in housing has been through a few boards. I'm on current boards where we support some veterans who are in need of supports. I think one of the important things for housing is the wraparound services that keep people housed. Often, I've found with some of the veterans we work with that they get into a place where they are getting housed, but then other pieces of their life are falling. As a result, they're at risk of losing housing.

With some of the barriers, of course, and the social determinants of health, with a lack of access to communications or the lack of a strong relationships with the Veterans Affairs offices, people often fall through the cracks. A lot of organizations kind of step in to support people when they have connections, but I'm sure more—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I'm sorry. I have very limited time left, and you touched on what I think is an important point. I want to follow up on it a little bit.

When it comes to those kinds of services, do you think Veterans Affairs could be more proactive in helping veterans before they fall into homelessness?

[Todd Ross]

Again, I think there are so many challenges when you're looking at homelessness. Particularly with veterans, my experience is that homelessness tends to be one issue that people are dealing with. My experience has been that there are lots of supports from VAC, but they don't always reach the people in a timely manner because of these other complications that could be involved.

When we've alerted VAC to an issue, they've been very responsive. It's identifying those individuals who are falling through the cracks. If they're connected with an organization, the organization can often support them, but a lot of times they're not connected.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I guess that's what I was getting at: Could they be more proactive in helping to identify who those people are?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you. Your time is up.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Can he be given a brief opportunity to respond to that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Ross, you can have 15 seconds, if you would like to react to that.

[Todd Ross]

I'll just say quickly that with a lot of services, there needs to be adaptability. Sometimes a bureaucracy can't be as adaptable, so I would encourage all departments to be more adaptable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

Let's go to Randeep Sarai for six minutes.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both witnesses.

Ms. Teillet, I understand you had the opportunity to support a documentary, available on CBC Gem, called Indian Braves. This project went across the country to meet veterans and their families and to hear their stories of life in the Canadian military.

Could you share more about this project with our committee and why projects like these are very important for Canadians?

[Danielle Teillet]

Yes. Thank you for the question.

That documentary, as you said, was called Indian Braves. I believe it aired nationwide on CBC on Remembrance Day last year, which was very exciting for us at the War Museum. I think these projects are so critical to build awareness in broader mainstream society.

For me, I research this stuff. I live this stuff. I work in it every day. It's sort of like how you, I'm sure, on the veterans affairs committee, live veterans affairs. This is a big part of your agenda. But I think for the average person, it's not something that there's a great awareness of.

I just gave a talk on Friday, actually, to a group in Ottawa. We talked about why we have Indigenous Veterans Day, for example, which is coming up on November 8, next Friday. There's a lack of awareness. A lot of people, I think, question why we have a separate day for indigenous veterans. It's an interesting question, but I think it comes down to having knowledge about the historical foundations. Some of the stuff I spoke about and elaborated on a little bit more in the documentary was about the complete lack of recognition of the contributions of indigenous service people, fundamentally the sacrifices they made, the lack of supports, the lack of recognition for status Indians, and the lack of full citizenship rights until after the Second World War, until 1960.

I think with more awareness.... As they say, if we know better, we can do better. I also think that the more the general public understands about these historical foundations, the more momentum we can build to hopefully improve the lives of current veterans, contemporary veterans.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you.

I just went to a Sikh Remembrance Day ceremony in Kitchener this weekend. It reminds me of what you said. There were a lot of people who weren't allowed to join the military. They joined, but there was a pass, I guess, because they needed people. They felt that, this way, they'll be integrated and respected more. As you said, when they came back, sometimes it wasn't.... In this case, I think there were 10 in total from the Sikh Indian community joining on behalf of Canada at the time.

Can you provide an overview of the historical participation of indigenous people in the military, including key conflicts and contributions, so we have a context? What were the battles and wars, and what numbers participated?

[Danielle Teillet]

Absolutely.

As I alluded to in my presentation, the numbers are elusive. There were indigenous people serving alongside colonial forces in the Seven Years' War and the War of 1812. Indigenous people went to the Nile Expedition. There was a precedent long before the First World War. That was a motivation for a lot of indigenous people to enlist. They saw it as part of their relationship with the Crown through elements such as treaties and previous military alliances. Even the Royal Proclamation of 1763 recognizes first nations' sovereign status.

I think Veterans Affairs, at this point, estimates that about 12,000 indigenous people have served in 20th century conflicts. Again, due to lack of recognition of Métis people's indigeneity, for example, I don't know that we'll ever have real numbers to suggest how many people served in conflicts. In fact, I read the account of a Second World War veteran who talked about his Métis nationhood not being recognized when he enlisted. They said, “Well, what part European are you? What type of European are you?” He said, “French”, so they wrote “French” on his paper. They said there was no such thing as Métis. That was a real frustration for him, and he talked about that when he was a veteran.

These are historical issues I'm speaking about, but they're real issues, yes.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

I'll go to you, Mr. Ross.

How can indigenous communities be more involved in shaping the policies and programs that affect veterans and how indigenous veterans are commemorated and remembered?

[Todd Ross]

I mentioned there are currently a women's forum and a 2SLGBTQI+ forum that Veterans Affairs organizes each year. It would be my recommendation to begin having an indigenous forum, or specific first nations, Métis and Inuit forums, bringing together veterans from those communities so we can share our experiences and continue to build our connections, contemporarily, across the nation. The existing forums are a great opportunity to find out where the frustrations are, and where the solutions are, so I'd highly recommend that that happen.