Evidence of meeting #115 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was communities.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Amy Meunier  Assistant Deputy Minister, Commemoration and Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs
Nathalie Pham  Director General Field Operations, Service Delivery Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs
Joel Pedersen  Senior Operations Manager, Indigenous Veterans Engagement Team, Department of Veterans Affairs
Randi Gage  Manitoba Chapter, Chair of Unified Veterans of Manitoba, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones
Wendy-Anne Jocko  Indigenous Liaison, Innovation Seven, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones
Nicholas Held  Assistant Scientific Director, Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research
Paul Hook  Major (Retired), Managing Director, Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

We will now begin the public portion of the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on January 29, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of the experience of indigenous veterans and Black veterans.

Before we begin, since members are returning after spending a week in their constituencies, I would like to remind you of a few rules to follow very carefully so as not to create interference that could injure the interpreters' hearing. When a person is speaking, they should not be wearing their earpiece; they should set it aside. The card on the table includes a QR code to obtain more details on the measures to follow.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Some witnesses are participating on Zoom.

I will now introduce the witnesses who are joining us for the first portion of this meeting.

From the Department of Veterans Affairs, we have with us Amy Meunier, assistant deputy minister, commemoration and public affairs branch; Madame Nathalie Pham, director general, field operations, service delivery branch, by video conference; and Joel Pedersen, senior operations manager, indigenous veterans engagement team, by video conference from Winnipeg.

I'd like to extend a very warm welcome to all the witnesses.

We'll start with you, Ms. Meunier. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Amy Meunier Assistant Deputy Minister, Commemoration and Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members, for having us here today to speak about the experiences of indigenous veterans and Black veterans.

In the spirit of reconciliation, I'd like to begin by acknowledging that Ottawa is built on the unceded Anishinabe Algonquin territory and that the peoples of the Anishinabe Algonquin Nation have lived here for millennia.

When it comes to military experience, Mr. Chair, we know that indigenous people and Black Canadians have historically faced significant discrimination, notably in the form of overt exclusion and systemic racism. From discriminatory enlistment policies to forced assimilation, the treatment endured by indigenous people and by Black Canadians is a stain on our history.

We've worked hard to address this regrettable legacy, both by recognizing the generational impact of the wrongs committed and by taking action to eliminate any barriers that have kept indigenous people and Black Canadians from receiving the care and support they are entitled to as veterans. We've made some progress, but there's still much more work to do.

The minister's mandate letter contains several commitments designed to achieve results for equity-deserving veterans. Specific to those who are indigenous, we are working to reduce barriers to accessing services, including improving outreach to indigenous communities and expanding the offering of culturally appropriate services, which our department has been doing through our indigenous veterans engagement team.

In its first year, VAC's indigenous veterans engagement team conducted over 80 in-person engagements with indigenous communities and veterans. This included participation in five trade shows, conferences and annual meetings, as well as presentations to CAF leadership, to Canadian Rangers, to indigenous leadership opportunity year participants and to the RCMP.

The team also made more than 40 community visits, attended six festivals and powwows and took part in two international events. Notably, they supported a delegation of families and community members who travelled to the Netherlands to commemorate indigenous soldiers at their graves through the indigenous legacy project.

Veterans Affairs Canada has been working to improve indigenous veterans' access to culturally appropriate services. We're working with other government organizations to create a process that ensures indigenous veterans can smoothly connect with programs, such as traditional healing and elder services. This approach respects the vital role of indigenous communities in identifying and delivering culturally specific supports.

We've also listened closely to indigenous leaders and to community members, including the Southern Chiefs Organization, which has shared its perspectives on improving these services. Through ongoing dialogue and based on feedback, VAC continues to adapt and refine this process, ensuring that the services align with the unique needs and the cultural perspectives of indigenous veterans.

Our department signed a letter of understanding with the Assembly of First Nations in April 2023 that highlights joint priorities in veteran engagement, outreach and commemoration. In 2019, we signed a Métis veterans recognition payment contribution agreement to address concerns raised by the Métis National Council with regard to the treatment of Second World War Métis veterans.

We are also committed to recognizing the military service of indigenous peoples and Black Canadians and their achievements in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Since 2020, our commemorative partnership program has approved a total of more than $865,000 in funding for 80 projects in indigenous communities or projects commemorating the contributions of indigenous veterans.

You may know as well about the particular focus our department has placed on telling the story of the No. 2 Construction Battalion. With funding from our commemorative partnership program, organizations are encouraged to plan commemorative activities, develop educational materials and build or improve community war memorials that commemorate the battalion, its members and its legacy. This dedicated funding responds to a recommendation from the national apology advisory committee, which conducted consultations with descendants of the No. 2 Construction Battalion and members of Black communities on their vision of a meaningful apology.

Following the first call for proposals last February, 15 organizations received funding for 16 projects that honoured the legacy of the No. 2 Construction Battalion: interactive websites, educational events, new memorials and learning exhibits.

Exhibits, plaques and commemorative ceremonies are unique ways to commemorate these people, who left such an indelible mark on Canada's military history through their courage, sacrifice and determination to serve despite the obstacles they faced.

We have also supported a number of indigenous and Black veterans through our veteran and family well-being fund, which provides grants and contributions to private, public, academic or indigenous organizations to conduct research and implement initiatives and projects that support the well-being of veterans and their families.

While Veterans Affairs Canada is taking many steps to ensure that indigenous and Black veterans receive the support and services they need and deserve, we recognize that much more needs to be done.

That is why we eagerly await this committee's recommendations on how we can improve these veterans' experience.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you very much for your opening remarks, Ms. Meunier.

I now turn to you, members of the committee. Given the in camera portion of the meeting, I have a proposal. The second part of the meeting, which will take place with the next panel of witnesses, could last 45 minutes, as it did for the Veterans Affairs panel, rather than an hour as planned. The meeting would therefore continue until 5:45 p.m. That way, each party would get a six-minute round. That time could be shared among colleagues. Then we could hear from the other witnesses. Is that agreed?

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Excellent.

I would also remind you that Ms. Meunier is not our only witness. There are two other witnesses joining us by video conference. You can ask them questions as well.

I'll start with Mr. Richards, the first vice-chair of the committee, for six minutes.

Please go ahead.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Thank you.

I'd like to start by giving notice of the following motion:

Given that:

a. During a recent Remembrance Day ceremony at Sir Robert Borden High School, the school played an anti-Israel protest song associated with the ongoing war in Gaza instead of playing music associated with the service and sacrifice of Canadian service members;

b. The principal of the school defended the choice, complaining that Remembrance Day is too often about “a white guy who has done something related to the military”;

The committee report to the House its opinion that the principal of Sir Robert Borden High School should be terminated for his actions.

Obviously, this is a disgraceful situation that dishonours the memory and sacrifice of many of our Canadian soldiers, and I want to put this motion on notice today.

I'll now turn to some questions I have.

I'd like to know if indigenous veterans who utilize other programs, such as the on-reserve income assistance program, have their benefits or entitlements from VAC affected by that.

For example, would these indigenous-specific programs be counted against income-tested benefits, such as the income replacement benefit from VAC, and would indigenous veterans have their incomes and benefits reduced as a result of their heritage?

Can you tell me if that, in fact, occurs?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Commemoration and Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs

Amy Meunier

The income replacement benefit is intended, as the name suggests, to replace income, and then there are certain types of payments that would be offset from that if they were deemed income. I can't say offhand if that is one specifically. I can ask my colleague—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Okay. Perhaps there's someone who can answer. Otherwise, if you could just commit to providing the answer....

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Commemoration and Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs

Amy Meunier

Sure, we could do that.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Is there someone who could answer that, by email specifically?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Commemoration and Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs

Amy Meunier

I will look to my colleague Ms. Pham.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Give just a quick yes or no on that, please.

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Excuse me, Ms. Pham. Please turn on your microphone.

Nathalie Pham Director General Field Operations, Service Delivery Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs

I apologize, Mr. Chair.

As Ms. Meunier said, the purpose of the income replacement benefit is to replace income. There are criteria and there are—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I'm sorry, but we have only six minutes. I don't want to use it this way, please. I'd like to just have a yes or no: Is the income replacement benefit, for example, reduced if an indigenous veteran receives other assistance?

4:20 p.m.

Director General Field Operations, Service Delivery Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs

Nathalie Pham

Each case is unique. If you have a question about a specific veteran's case, we can provide you with an answer later.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Okay. Thank you. If you could provide that information to us, that would be very helpful. Obviously, it would be completely wrong if it turns out to be the case that an indigenous veteran is being penalized in their earnings due to their heritage, so I hope that the answer is no, but please provide that to us.

There are studies that have been done by organizations like the Atlas Institute that show that indigenous veterans have the lowest satisfaction rate with Veterans Affairs around the services they receive. Can you tell us why that is?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Commemoration and Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs

Amy Meunier

I can tell you that we're working very diligently to try to make stronger connections with indigenous veterans and their families, and in particular with indigenous communities. For a long time, as I mentioned in my opening remarks—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I'm sorry, but in those communications that you're having, what is the indication you're receiving as to why those satisfaction rates are so low?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Commemoration and Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs

Amy Meunier

Information and feedback we've been hearing are that in some instances, individuals did not recognize they were veterans themselves and therefore were not coming forward to seek support, and also that perhaps government hadn't treated them well in the past, and so there's hesitancy or reticence to engage.

We've been very focused on creating trust with communities and indigenous veterans—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

I'm sorry to interrupt, but because the time is limited, would you say that the low engagement you've seen and the low satisfaction are a reflection that the department's policies are inadequate?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Commemoration and Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs

Amy Meunier

No, I would not say that, not at all. In fact, over the last number of—

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

No. Okay. Then are you suggesting that these indigenous veterans are incorrect in having a low opinion of VAC's programs?

Bryan May Liberal Cambridge, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Excuse me, Mr. Richards. I have a point of order.