Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 18th, 2024

[Dr. Nicholas Held]

That's a very good question, and that's something we just worked through in our proposal that we put forward for a grant to run this. We invited individuals from Inuit communities, Métis, first nations from across Canada and indigenous organizations to come forward in a round table. There would be three round table discussions to start to speak to some of the priorities.

In some research we've been involved in to date with other organizations, we were just asking the wrong questions. It wasn't ill-intentioned, but when we ask these questions from our perspectives and we bring them to indigenous communities, we realize that it's not important to them or that they're the wrong questions. We recognize at CIMVHR that it's not appropriate for us to ask those questions, no matter how well-intentioned we are.

For our internal process right now, we have no government funding for research, which I think is an important distinction, so we are looking for funding in order to complete that process and make sure all groups are represented so that we can start talking about some key themes.

It's also recognizing.... We say “indigenous veterans”—and of course there would be other people who could answer this better than I can—but the priorities of each individual indigenous organization are going to be different, and each indigenous veteran is going to be different, so it's also, at a higher level, understanding some of the questions that we can be asking to make sure that the research is what's needed.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that. I really appreciate your awareness of the difference between intention and impact. Figuring out how to manoeuvre that can sometimes be really challenging.

Ms. Jocko, I'll go to you for my next question, and then I'll follow up with Ms. Gage on the same question.

First of all, I just want to say, Ms. Jocko, that I'm so sorry for the loss of your son. I thank you for sharing that with us. I will carry that with me.

I heard a couple of things in testimony that I think are really important, things about traditional ceremony and about addressing the needs of isolated communities, especially indigenous communities, around veteran services. I know what a challenge that can be. I've seen that. One witness who testified here talked about having an annual event where indigenous veterans were brought together to talk about all the issues they were facing and experiencing to better educate Veterans Affairs to the realities on the ground for indigenous people and to create a place where there could be ceremony or different actions, depending on the people who came together.

Based on other testimony, I think it's probably a very good idea to actually hear from the community itself and all the diversity within that community. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts you'd like to share on that.

I'll start with you, Ms. Jocko, and then go to Ms. Gage.

[Chief Wendy-Anne Jocko]

I've heard that myself. I guess the concern for me is that when you say “indigenous”, you need to make sure that you are including first nation, Inuit, Métis and non-status Indians. There are still, unbeknownst to you and probably the country, a lot of non-status Indians out there who deserve to be part of the conversation. I know that the military went around in days gone by, when I was in, asking who was indigenous and who was not. Where does a non-status person come into the equation?

The reason I say that is the Michel band. You can look it up. I know people from the Michel band. The entire band was enfranchised. It was not just veterans or people who had the nerve to be educated when, in the old days, you were enfranchised; the entire band was enfranchised. They're fighting for their rights. Some of them are veterans.

You need to make sure that it is inclusive. There's a big problem with accepting people. My mom's from Scotland, just so you know. I guess the protection I have is that I live here on the reserve, but if people don't know your outward appearance and you say you're indigenous and they don't believe you, how do you...? People need to be taken at face value and to be treated with respect and dignity. Just as long as you're taking that into consideration, I think that's a positive thing.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I think that's so helpful. Thank you for that. We can talk about our opinions on that, but I think indigenous communities get to make that decision. That it's held by the Indian Act is not necessarily good.

Go ahead, Ms. Gage.

[Randi Gage]

Ceremonies are very important. They're hugely, hugely important.

It depends on who you're talking to in terms of first nations. As she says, with first nations you have treaty, non-treaty, status and non-status. It gets very confusing. Being able to have access to an elder or to have access to a medicine person, or, when you live in the city, to simply hear a drum.... When you hear a good, honest, clean drum, it's amazing what that does to you. It's sort of like, “Whoa! Okay. I'm not dead yet. My blood's pumping.” That's the heartbeat of our mother the earth. It's about having that connection, and things like that.

One thing I've experienced in the work I do with veterans is with regard to a lot of the programming that happens. I'll tell you about a husband and wife in Manitoba.

They served together in Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. I mean, they've been through the mud and the blood and the beer. They've been there. They wanted to go to a counselling program. They were sent to Deer Lodge. When they got to Deer Lodge, she had to sit in the hallway, because she couldn't be in there listening to what the men were saying. When they walked in and were sitting there—this is no disrespect to any religion around here, people; this is just the truth—the person who walked in to do the counselling and help them debrief was wearing a turban. How many years had they just spent with those people in their crosshairs? Does no one ever think about that?

For me, the first time I saw a Vietnamese person walking into my apartment block, I reacted with, “What the hell's going on here?” You have to think of these things. It's a simple thing, but you have to think about it.

We need to have access to our traditions and our culture and be able to go to an elder, go to a sweat lodge, go to a sun dance, or go to a square dance or whatever it is, be it first nation or Métis. We need to have that. We need to be able to have that for our community and for our guys and girls to heal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Ms. Gage, I'm afraid to show you my red card, but I have to. Thank you very much, and as we said, thank you for your service for those who serve in the army.

In closing, on my own behalf and on behalf of the committee members, the clerk, the analyst and the entire technical team, I would like to thank the two witnesses from Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones for their participation: Randi Gage, representing the Manitoba chapter and chair of Unified Veterans of Manitoba, and Wendy-Anne Jocko, indigenous liaison officer at Innovation Seven, who appeared by video conference, as well as Nicholas Held, assistant scientific director of the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research, and Major (Retired) Paul Hook, managing director at the Institute.

If you have any documents for us, please do not hesitate to send them to us through the clerk. We will gladly accept them.

With that, is it the will of the committee to adjourn the meeting?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

The meeting is adjourned.