Evidence of meeting #116 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was veterans.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Mr. Chair, am I not also entitled to five minutes to speak? The Conservatives cannot be granted five more minutes without giving me the same.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
I understand, but the time we took to discuss Mr. Richards’ motion used up some of our time with the witness. We have another panel of witnesses to hear from. Furthermore, I gave the member three minutes of speaking time, rather than five minutes, to be able to welcome the other witnesses on time.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
I'm just wondering if we could extend the meeting by a few minutes to accommodate all the needs.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you so much for being here, Mr. Petrou.
I want to ask you this question because I spent more than 20 years as a daily journalist. I feel it's a career that never really leaves you. It becomes part of your intrinsic being. I know that as a parliamentarian now I use everything I learned as a journalist, all the skills that I gained over the years, to inform my work here.
Would you please tell us more about your history as a war correspondent and how that informs the work you're doing now with the museum?
Historian, Veterans' Experience, Canadian War Museum
That's a good question.
I did spend many years as a foreign correspondent. I have covered conflicts in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in the Middle East and elsewhere. I think some veterans are aware of that. I don't usually mention it, so I think most are not.
Journalists and soldiers are in war zones for fundamentally different reasons. I think that's important. Some of the people I have interviewed I knew from Afghanistan. There are certain elements of being a journalist in a war zone that are similar. For better or for worse, I do know what it's like to be shot at, and I do know what it's like to lose colleagues. Those might be similarities, but ultimately, we are in conflict zones for different reasons.
When I was under fire, I curled up in a fetal position at the bottom of a trench. I think that's perfectly understandable for a journalist. I think soldiers have different reactions. I would reluctantly say that perhaps it has given me a limited insight into some of the experiences that veterans have had, but I'd say it's very limited.
Perhaps being a journalist and simply having a long history of talking to people and, perhaps more importantly, knowing when to be quiet have been useful in this exercise, which I should say, if you'll permit me, has been enormously rewarding. I feel very lucky to have had the conversations that I've had, perhaps especially with the Second World War veterans, who we're sadly losing. The entire experience has been an enriching one, and I'm grateful for it.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
I think that's exactly the point. Knowing how to listen and how to talk to people are key parts of journalism that we can bring to other careers.
Can you tell us what you hope comes out of this project called “In Their Own Voices”? Can you tell us more about how it affected the veterans to be able to have a platform to share their stories?
Historian, Veterans' Experience, Canadian War Museum
It's been difficult for some veterans to have these conversations. It has been painful. There have been a lot of tears. There have been a few hugs. The purpose was never to be validating; it was to explore. I think it has been a positive experience for some veterans, and it's been very difficult for others.
These are heavy, difficult conversations, but my dear hope is that veterans who do not participate in the project will hear their own stories, their own experiences, reflected in the voices of the veterans we did interview and who are part of the exhibition. I hope other Canadians, family members and non-veterans, through this exhibition, will perhaps have a deeper understanding of the experiences of people they may know or of veterans in general.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you very much.
Mr. Michael Petrou, on behalf of the committee and on my own behalf, I want to thank you for your contribution and for being here. If you have other things to communicate to us after the study you lead, do not hesitate to send us information through the clerk.
Ladies and gentlemen, we will suspend sitting for a few minutes, the time it will take to welcome witnesses for the next hour.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Ladies and gentlemen, we are resuming the meeting.
We have other witnesses with us for the second hour. I'd like to welcome them.
As witnesses we have, from Legacy Voices, Ms. Kathy Grant, historian, Black Canadian veterans' voices. From Métis Nation-Saskatchewan, we have Mervin Bouvier, minister of veterans affairs, and John Belanger, veteran.
I welcome all of you. You're going to have five minutes for your opening statement. After that, we're going to ask you some questions to go further.
I invite you, Ms. Grant, to start. You have five minutes for your opening remarks. Please, go ahead.
Kathy Grant Historian, Black Veterans' Experience, Legacy Voices
Thank you.
Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for the opportunity to contribute to your deliberations.
My name is Kathy Grant, founder of the Legacy Voices project, co-creator of the Black Canadian veterans's stories program and website, historian on the No. 2 Construction Battalion commemoration committee, and school and community educator on the struggles and accomplishments of the many Black Canadians who have served our country in military service since the War of 1812.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Excuse me, Ms. Grant, but could you move a little bit closer to the microphone, please?
Thank you.
Historian, Black Veterans' Experience, Legacy Voices
My father was a veteran of the Canadian army and air force. He was an immigrant from Barbados. He specifically chose to come to Canada to join in the effort to defeat our enemies in World War II.
After an extensive career in public service, my father turned his attention to gaining and sharing a better understanding of the contributions of Black participants in the war effort. Before his death, he asked me to continue those efforts. I've done that, and I continue to do it. Others have contributed mightily to my research. Extensive work by the late Thamis Gale and his very large collection of research have been foundational.
Efforts by many veterans to share their stories and their understanding with me have proved invaluable. Family members of veterans have added to my research and my understanding. The collaboration of professional educators, military reserve personnel, multimedia journalists, student research assistants, Library and Archives Canada and the Canadian War Museum have greatly enriched my work. Of course, the work of your committee is focused on the contemporary experience of our veterans and how you might contribute to improving their experience.
What I want to tell you is that the past—our history—shapes the present. If we understand the past accurately and the present fully, we are better able to shape the future.
Going back 110 years, many Black Canadians and some others from the United States and the Caribbean devoutly wished to join the Canadian military in World War I. Some were successful in doing so, but many were refused enlistment for no other reason than their race. After two years of advocacy by Black clergymen and community leaders, and many obstacles and obstructions, No. 2 Construction Battalion began to take shape. It was an all-Black unit with white officers other than a Black honorary captain, the chaplain.
Eventually, about 600 members were sent to Europe in non-combatant support roles in forestry and construction. These efforts were no doubt important to the war effort, but there's no question that finding military roles for an entirely Black unit without providing them with weapons was somewhat founded on unreasonable ignorance and racism. As well, the numbers just weren't there. Nonetheless, the No. 2 Construction Battalion served Canada well and contributed to our eventual victory.
After much pressure from the Black community, primarily in Toronto and the area, a plaque was installed at Queen's Park in Ontario. Very little was heard about No. 2 for decades—almost a century.
As World War II commenced, like many other Canadians and Commonwealth citizens, Black men and women sought to join in military efforts to defeat the Nazis. At the time, and until 1942, the RCAF did not permit the enlistment of Black people. They said you had to be of pure European descent. The Canadian navy had a policy of exclusion. They said you had to be of the white race to get in. Only a handful of Black sailors were accepted—five out of the entire Royal Canadian Navy in the Second World War—and only one was able to go overseas. Eventually, the RCAF relented. A number of Black enlistees, including my father, distinguished themselves.
You can read some of these stories on our website, Black Canadian Veterans Stories, at www.blackcanadianveterans.com, or on our Facebook page of the same name. On November 7 we also launched a new website on the No. 2 Construction Battalion.
Since World War II, the contributions of Black Canadians to our military have continued and grown when it comes to infantry, divers, medics, pilots, logistics experts, engineers, administrators, technicians, mechanics, transport and in fact every aspect of our army, navy and air force.
Unfortunately, many Canadians are less aware of the significant contributions, in history and in the present, of Black Canadians in our military service. Only very recently have some schools begun to include this information in the classroom. Accurate and thorough information is not widely available. Along with our fellow colleagues and professional friends, we are attempting to change this for the better.
As with many somewhat forgotten or ignored parts of history, misinformation, outright mistruths and limited research with little financial and moral support continue to limit our understanding. Many of our institutions and agencies, lacking knowledge themselves, have unknowingly contributed to the poor quality of public information and understanding of the significant contributions of Black military personnel. Real understanding breeds collaboration, co-operation and better results.
Contemporary Black veterans have told me that they do not always receive respectful, timely and helpful services from Veterans Affairs. Their friendships, inevitable conversations and service-quality comparisons with fellow veterans of other racial backgrounds have helped them understand that this is not a broadly based problem in all Veterans Affairs interactions with their clients generally. Rather, it's something that seems to impact the Black veterans more commonly. Does this have anything to do with the generally poor understanding of the historical and recent past contributions of Black military personnel? It very well may.
How do we move forward towards real acknowledgement of the contributions of all members, past and present, of our military services? As a historian and educator, I will offer what I know. We must better educate our schoolchildren and the general public. To do that, we need to expand upon the current base of mostly volunteer work in uncovering and promoting the history—the accurate and complete history—of Black Canadians in the military. We must also encourage the gaining of this knowledge within the Veterans Affairs staff. Respect, attentiveness and compassion are based, at least in part, on knowledge.
In closing, I must tell you that in Toronto, in my travels doing this work, I see army, navy and air cadets. I see more of them, girls and boys, of diverse racial backgrounds—many more. We have a recruitment challenge in our armed forces. Many of these cadets may, in the near future, be part of the solution. Let us prepare with real knowledge and understanding so that they might be encouraged to join professionally, sure that they will enjoy the personal and professional respect we ought to offer them, both in service and one day as veterans.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you so much, Ms. Grant, for your opening remarks.
Now let's move to Mr. John Belanger for five minutes.
Please go ahead, Mr. Belanger.
John Belanger Veteran, Métis Nation-Saskatchewan
Good morning.
First of all, I'll let you know that I am a proud son of my late father, Leo, who landed on Juno Beach during the Second World War. I have an older brother who served 30 years. I myself did 27 years in the service.
I'm here representing Métis Nation-Saskatchewan, the official representative of section 35 rights holders in Saskatchewan. We are a government that operates for and by Métis citizens, dedicated to preserving and advancing the rights, identity and well-being of the Métis people. We are currently working to negotiate a modern-day treaty with the Government of Canada to advance the interests of our citizens, including our brave veterans and their families.
As the veterans representative for the MN-S, I will speak in regard to the things that matter to the Métis veterans. What is important to Métis veterans is predominantly the same as what's important to first nations and Inuit veterans. Some of these things are just sharing stories, supporting the veterans and their families, supporting the transition, and recognition where distinction is key. Indigenous people have always been left out of the history and the stories being told. A prime example is how few people know about the critical role of the code talkers. Métis have also had this plight, but to the degree that society and history have often taken a pan-indigenous approach in sharing the histories and achievements of our peoples, because we did fight alongside our first nations cousins, what's important is distinction and ensuring that our Métis pride is visible.
To this end, some of the key priorities in Saskatchewan include identifying veterans in Saskatchewan, building connections with them, helping them connect with each other and beginning to document and collect their distinct stories and experiences. I myself know that when we talk about anything to do with veterans, there is a cut-off when it comes to remote parts of Canada. There is a huge disconnect.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you very much.
Mr. Bouvier, if you want to intervene, you have two more minutes.
Mervin Bouvier Minister of Veterans Affairs, Métis Nation-Saskatchewan
Thank you.
I just want to reiterate the importance of culture and language. A lot of times culture and language are not taught enough in modern society. Where I come from, a lot of veterans came home, and a lot of times they didn't understand the culture that's been.... They understand the culture, but modern people didn't understand the culture of how to present themselves to the culture people, especially when it came to language or living, how they live with their culture themselves, so education is very important.
Mental health was a big issue. They forgot that mental health is passed on from the veterans themselves to their families, which is still the case today. Where I come from in the north, I've lived with veterans all my life. Most of them have gone, but some veterans still survive. They need a lot of support and mental health support.
We're trying to establish a booklet now to revise all the veterans that come from the Métis side and the first nations, so we're creating a partnership to create a booklet. We don't have enough funds, so we need the federal government to step up and help us out with the federal funds.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you very much, Mr. Bouvier.
Now we're going to start the first round of questions for six minutes each. I invite Mrs. Wagantall for six minutes.
Please go ahead.
