Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

Yes, it’s about 20%.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That’s perfect.

I have an easy question: Do you think the way they were treated in the army was the same as how white people were treated?

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

Perhaps it was closer to being equal in the army than outside the army. That's what was told to me.

Again, veterans who were Black and indigenous spoke of discrimination inside the military, absolutely, but if I can generalize, I think the recollection that was conveyed to me was that there was less racism, and they were more likely to be treated based on their own skills and merits than on the colour of their skin inside the military than outside.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Do you think that indigenous, Black or Métis veterans were treated the same as white veterans by Veterans Affairs Canada?

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

I don't feel qualified to answer that. I'm sorry. I know you'd like a response. When I cast my mind back on the 200 interviews, there were complaints about treatment from Veterans Affairs, absolutely. To the best of my recollection right now, I can't recall any veteran who suggested that where their treatment from Veterans Affairs fell short was as a result of their being Black, indigenous or Métis, or indeed their background.

Now perhaps I should highlight here the experiences of the LGBTQ veterans and the purge. There were legal struggles and efforts to obtain an apology from not Veterans Affairs but the government, and that was obviously related to identity. However, when I cast my mind back to the Black and indigenous veterans, I can't recall any suggestion or any accusation where Veterans Affairs fell short and it was related to their indigeneity or their being Black.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

All right. I will put the question in another way.

Do you think Black, Métis or indigenous veterans are recognized appropriately by the public and the government?

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

I think it's changing. We're trying at the museum. There's always work to be done, but I think we have highlighted and we continue to highlight certain undertold stories. We recently made additions regarding Black soldiers in the First World War to our permanent galleries.

I think there have been some broader efforts across Canadian society to recognize veterans who were not recognized, and I would extend that to include women as well. Certainly we've spoken to a number of Second World War women veterans who talked about being forgotten, moving back into civilian life and not being welcomed at the Legion the same way the men were.

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, I think that indigenous veterans are especially recognized in their own communities, perhaps in a way that doesn't happen in non-indigenous communities.

Again, I think it's changing. The museum, I hope, is part of those efforts of trying to shine a light on these undertold stories. Within their own communities—I am thinking of Acaciaville in Nova Scotia—there are efforts amongst the long-standing Black community to recognize some of these undertold stories.

It's certainly happening within first nations and within individual communities, and I think and I hope within some of the larger national institutions such as the War Museum. We're trying. We're doing our best and I think we're—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You said earlier that these veterans, who represent a proportion of about 20%, were not—

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

I'd like to recount, but probably—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

It might be somewhere between 10% and 25%; it does not matter. It’s not a problem, I just wanted an idea of the proportion.

So, you said these veterans were not welcomed or accepted in the Legion. That was in the past. Is it still the case for veterans today?

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

I don't think it was ever the formal case. I mentioned one. It was an indigenous veteran and the son of a very highly decorated indigenous veteran of the Second World War, who, again, spoke of this idea that you enjoy a greater sense of equity inside the military. His words were, “We're good enough to die beside, but we're not good enough to share a drink with in the Legion”, but he wasn't speaking of a formal Legion policy. I think he was speaking of social ostracism or exclusion.

Second World War veteran women did speak about the challenges of accessing the Legion in the postwar years, yes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Now I invite Ms. Rachel Blaney to take the floor for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Dr. Petrou, for being here today, for being our sole witness and for answering all of our questions.

What your testimony caused me to contemplate and think about is this: First of all, it's very hard to speak on behalf of other people. You witnessed the stories, but you haven't lived the experience. I thank you for trying to reference the voices you've heard, and I accept how hard it can be to make those voices clear when it's not your lived experience.

You talked about using service to belong and how, even though they experienced racism in the military, often, when they left the military, there were experiences while reintegrating back into Canada—re-experiencing a level of discrimination they weren't necessarily used to in the military.

You also talked about how they—not all, but a lot of them—want to be noticed for their service but not noticed because they're an indigenous or a Black person providing that service.

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

A couple of individuals said that specifically.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Yes, but I think what I'm trying to get at is that these things are very complex and, as you said earlier, very individual.

I'm wondering whether you could talk about your listening to some of the testimony about belonging, since 26 or 11 isn't a huge group. It's hard to make all of these assumptions about the whole in that way. However, I'm very fascinated by the idea of using service to belong and whether you heard that from non-indigenous or non-Black people when talking about using the military to belong.

Can you tell us if there's any nuance or difference there?

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

I think, in Canada.... Look, a Black child, for example, is more likely to face questions, some of them well intentioned and some, perhaps, malevolent. You know, it's “Where are you from?” and “Where is your family really from?” Again, I'm speaking about a couple of the Black veterans whose families came here after the American Revolution. A Black individual in Canada, of course, is more likely to face those questions than someone who has lighter skin. I don't think that's a controversial opinion. Someone who is not Black, indigenous or brown won't have that same sort of pressure to prove they belong here. It's assumed they belong based on the colour of their skin.

The idea of using veteranhood or service as a path to social acceptance and belonging is unique to indigenous and racialized veterans. Again, it's a path to social mobility for poor people. Everyone's life gets changed, sometimes for the better. I'm often cautious, because these interviews reveal trauma and some of those cascading impacts. However, I also recall a woman veteran of Afghanistan. She said, “Look, because I'm a woman who served in Afghanistan, everyone expects me to say that war was hell and that I'm broken.” She said, “No, many of us are happy with what we did.” That inflection point or shift can be a positive one. It is a path to social mobility and post-service workplace skills for veterans, regardless of their background.

I think what I'm arguing and what I think is reflected in these interviews is that, in terms of veteranhood or service as a pathway to acceptance as a Canadian and to belonging, despite looking different, is that it's unique to racialized veterans in a way it's not to white veterans. I think I'm comfortable saying that.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

I also want to ask this: You talked about speaking with 26 indigenous veterans. I know there are Métis, Inuit and first nations.

Are you able to get back to us on what that is? I don't expect you to have it off the top of your head.

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

I think I have it off the top of my head.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay, if you do—

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

I will, as best as I can.

You're right. There might be one or two more than 26. I'm including Métis veterans or their family members there.

Unfortunately, I've not yet interviewed Inuit veterans. I don't believe I've interviewed any. Anyway, there are gaps.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Yes.

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

The north is a gap that we're hoping to fill. There are 26 first nations and Métis, and so far no Inuit.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that. That's really helpful.

You talked about their reintegrating back into society and some of them experiencing discrimination in a more poignant way, let's say. What I find interesting about that is that we've heard, especially from indigenous veterans, that when they are accessing services from VAC, sometimes there are people who are not trained well who react to them with some very racist comments about things that are just completely inappropriate.

On the broad idea that Canada can sometimes not be as friendly to people from these communities, do you ever hear anything specifically about services they're trying to access where they experience discrimination based on their indigenous status or their Black status?

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

I don't question the testimony of other witnesses, but that's not something I encountered in my interviews, no.