Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

We will now have two more interventions of five minutes each.

I invite the first vice-president of the committee, Mr. Blake Richards, to go ahead, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thanks.

First, I'd like to move the motion that I had put on notice on Monday. It reads as follows:

Given that:

a. During a recent Remembrance Day ceremony at Sir Robert Borden High School, the school played an anti-Israel protest song associated with the ongoing war in Gaza instead of playing music associated with the service and sacrifice of Canadian service members; and

b. The principal of the school defended the choice, complaining that Remembrance Day is too often about “a white guy who has done something related to the military”.

The committee report to the House its opinion that the principal of Sir Robert Borden High School should be terminated for his actions.

I don't want to spend a lot of time on the motion, as I do have some questions for our witness, but I would like to say something in relation to it.

When I go and speak to schools in my riding and elsewhere, one of the most important things I do is teach the students about how important it is to honour and remember the service and sacrifice that has given them the right to be there in school and learning, about how some children in other parts of the world don't get those opportunities and about how important it is for them to remember that the very opportunity for all of us around this table to be here to serve, to be representatives of the people in our communities, is because of that service and that sacrifice.

I can't imagine anything more damaging to ensuring that the next generation remembers and understands that than for a school to dishonour the Remembrance Day service and to make anything other than the sacrifice and service of those veterans and those still serving as the theme and the importance of that day. There's nothing more dishonouring to that memory than to make it about something else—some kind of protest or political message or whatever it might be. It should be focused only on service and sacrifice. That's all it should be focused on.

With that, I certainly hope that all members of this committee will be joining with me in condemning that terribly disgraceful kind of behaviour, standing up for our veterans and standing up for honouring the importance of remembrance.

I'll move that motion. I hope we can vote on it quickly and get to the witness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Richards.

Mr. Petrou, as part of our procedure here, I have to give the floor to members of the committee. You can stay here.

Who would like to intervene?

Mr. Randeep Sarai.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

I haven't decided how I'll go forward on this, but I will say that it was highly inappropriate what happened there. Remembrance Day is supposed to be about veterans and the sacrifices they've made. I just think the jurisdiction of it is a provincial or municipal matter or a school board matter. I believe that's where it belongs. I don't think the appropriateness is necessarily in this place. We don't govern the principals. We have no sanctions on them. We have nothing where we could tell them what to do. I think it really falls in their purview. A school board should look into that, or else the government that mandates school boards, which is the province, needs to do that.

I will say that it was inappropriate to do that. Protest for other means is not an appropriate mechanism on a day of remembrance for veterans.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Sarai.

Now, we'll go to Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm disappointed that we're taking up time when we could be dealing with a witness. He moved it in public. We could have just done that at a different time, but here we are.

Remembrance Day is a really important day to remember people who served our country. It is a time of great sorrow for so many families across the country. Educating young people about what that looks like and about the cost of war is tremendously important. I really don't condone the behaviour we saw there. It was not well thought out. I think that complex discussions always need to happen, but that is not the time or place for complex discussions. It's a time to honour the people who served us.

However, I won't be supporting this motion, because I don't feel it is the role of a committee to make that kind of judgment. I believe that when hard things happen, communities and the areas need to deal with it, and that is their sacred right. When we come in and impose something, as a committee that isn't part of the community, it just seems a bit odd.

Our voices, obviously, are all the same around the table, and I hope what is heard is that we don't believe that is appropriate behaviour. However, it isn't our job to tell people how to, as I think the motion says, fire someone. That is not our role as a committee. Perhaps the member could think about what our role is, which might be to have an opinion but not to tell people what the action should be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

Now let's go back to Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That is exactly what the motion does. It offers our opinion. If it isn't our place to offer an opinion about how veterans have been disrespected, and if it's not our place to stand up and be counted and to show that we are standing for our veterans, then whose place is it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will agree with my colleagues, other than those from the Conservative Party. I thank the vice-chair for being sensitive to this situation. Very obviously, what happened was completely unacceptable. Using an anti-Israeli a song is embarrassing and scandalous. However, it falls under provincial jurisdiction, which is none of the federal government’s business whatsoever. Let the right authorities act accordingly.

I myself was a school principal over the last 20 years. If I had seen a federal parliamentary committee get involved in managing my school, I would have found it funny at first, and then I would have found it scandalous.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Everyone was able to speak to the motion. I therefore ask the clerk to call the vote on the motion moved by Mr. Richards.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 3)

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We therefore returned to our discussion with Mr. Petrou.

Mr. Richards, you have the floor. You still have three minutes left.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

I have about four questions and, as was mentioned, about five minutes to ask them, so I'll ask that you try to keep the responses to 30 seconds or less.

We've heard a little, including from you today, about indigenous veterans who were denied benefits when they returned home after World War I, World War II and, I think, Korea as well.

Would you say that they were set back compared to their fellow veterans who did receive greater benefits?

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

I want to be cautious about saying “denied”. Again, there wasn't legislation preventing them from accessing it. This was more a result of circumstance, returning to reserves and not having access as opposed to being denied.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That's fair enough, but would you still say that it would have set them back compared to fellow veterans?

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

I could speculate, but I think we all could speculate about having less access to certain education and buying land. However, I can't assert that with conviction or examples to back it up.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay. That's fair.

For veterans returning to Canada after those wars, would you say that economic stability here at home in Canada would have played a role in ensuring a successful transition to civilian life after the wars?

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

Perhaps, and I think that all Canadians enjoyed a postwar economic boom. Again, to go back to the conversation with Mr. Dowdall, the greater help that the veterans of the Second World War had is that they came back to a country where 1.1 million Canadians had served. Those who didn't serve understood what they had gone through. There wasn't that isolation that there is for the younger veterans of Afghanistan.

It's still hard. Ninety-nine-year-old veterans I've spoken to have talked about PTSD using different vocabulary, and I recognize what they're saying, but they weren't isolated. They were surrounded by people who understood what they did and who often had taken part in those efforts.

The experience for veterans today is, I think, very different, because they're not surrounded by people who were part of that same effort. I think that dislocation is more profound, and perhaps being surrounded by people who understood them was even more helpful in the post-Second World War era than the economic stability that they were enjoying, as we all were.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Certainly, there's no question that having supports is important.

Would you also say, though, that the idea that having access to timeliness in terms of getting those benefits is important in that transition to life after service?

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

Again, with a cautiousness that I don't feel entirely comfortable diving into the nuts and bolts of policy, I think that's a fair thing to say, but I say it with a lot of caveats. I'm not a policy person. What you say makes sense, of course, but I wouldn't go further than that.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That's fair enough. That may answer the last question I have. Would you say that not having access to timely benefits and the fact that we have a cost of living crisis and a housing crisis in Canada would contribute to veterans struggling to make that transition to civilian life?

[Dr. Michael Petrou]

Again, I'd be speculating. I think I understand where you're going, and this is getting more into policy and perhaps politics, which is something I don't really feel qualified to speak to. You have my apologies.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

That's fair. I appreciate that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Richards.

This brings an end to the first hour of the meeting, which we spent with Mr. Michael Petrou. I remind you that—