Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 117 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, January 29, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of the experience of indigenous and Black veterans.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I'd like to inform the committee that the joint meeting with PROC and the delegation of Ukrainian parliamentarians will be held during the second hour of Thursday's regularly scheduled meeting, from noon to 1:30 p.m. Lunch will be served, and the meeting will be held in a room different from the committee's meeting room in this building. We will inform you where it will be.

In preparation for this meeting, a member must move the following motion, which must be carried:

That the clerk of the committee make the necessary arrangements for an informal joint meeting with the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and the delegation of Ukrainian Parliamentarians, on Thursday, November 28, 2024; and that the committee defray the hospitality expenses related to this meeting.

Do I have someone who can propose that motion?

I have Mr. Bryan May.

Is anyone opposed to the motion being carried?

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

The motion is carried unanimously.

Now I'm going to introduce our witnesses.

For the first hour, we have, as an individual by video conference, Mr. Bouchard Dulyx Dorval, veteran. We are trying to get in touch with him. We are not sure. We're going to try to have Mr. Dorval for the second hour.

Here in committee, we have, from the Assembly of First Nations' veterans council, Debbie Eisan. She is the community events manager for the Mi'kmaw Native Friendship Centre. We also have Alan Knockwood, a member.

Also, last time, we had Dr. Lynne Gouliquer, sociologist. Now the video conference is working, so we have Dr. Gouliquer with us this afternoon.

You're going to have five minutes each for your opening statements. After that, we will ask you some questions. We will start with Dr. Lynne Gouliquer by video conference.

Please open your mic and start your testimony.

[Dr. Lynne Gouliquer, Sociologist, Métis Veteran, As an Individual]

Thank you.

Taanishi. Hello.

I am speaking to you today from the Robinson-Huron territory, home of the Anishinabe and Métis peoples.

I am a 16-year veteran, having served in the Canadian Armed Forces between the years of 1976 and 1995. My maternal grandfather served during the Second World War, and my paternal grandfather's brother died in the First World War.

I am an LGBT purge survivor, having served during the most harrowing years for anyone who identified as LGBT or as a woman.

I am Métis and my home territory is Treaty 3, which is located predominantly in northwestern Ontario. It's the only treaty in Canada that Métis or the “half-breeds”, as they were known then, were invited to sign. I'm a citizen of the Métis Nation of Ontario and a member of their veterans' council.

I identify as lesbian, woman, two-spirit, Métis and now as a veteran. The latter is more recent.

After leaving the military in 1995, I completed my M.A. and Ph.D. in sociology. For my bachelor's degree, I studied the Military Family Resource Centres and women. For my master's degree, I studied lesbian military members. For my Ph.D., I studied women military members. Following my Ph.D., I held a Banting fellowship, and in 2015, I secured a permanent position in academia at Laurentian University. I'm also an O'Brien fellow.

My program of research focuses on marginalization, specifically what marginalized groups experience when they are a member of or are associated with an institution—for example, LGBTQIA+ military members and their partners and the military.

With my colleague, Dr. Carmen Poulin, we have collaborated on two large tri-council funded studies involving the Canadian military and marginalization.

The first study was conducted in the late 1990s and early 2000s. We examined the experiences of LGBT service members and their partners regarding the impact of military policy concerning homosexuality—the infamous CFAO 19-20. We interviewed 126 people comprised of three groups: those who that have been discharged, those who were LGBT and still serving, and civilian partners of these two groups.

The second study is in progress. We are examining the experiences of currently serving 2SLGBTQIA+ service members and their partners.

We are also conducting another tri-council funded study on Métis identity.

Personally, my military service left scars. I have PTSD that is associated with military sexual trauma and years of exposure to a deeply homophobic, anti-LGBT, anti-woman, anti-indigenous military culture and institution. I lived most of my career in the closet, not being able to openly identify as a lesbian, not wanting to identify as indigenous, and if I could have, not revealing that I was a woman.

I'm very happy and grateful for the advancements within both our military and Veterans Affairs. However, I think we still have more to do. While policies and practices have changed, invisible, deep-seated prejudice still exists and the culture needs to shift.

I believe that a certain amount of tunnel vision in the histories and stories of these marginalized people exists. For example, with regard to the LGBT purge, I know from our research that many LGBT military members served undetected for years and are now retired. They, however, carry the trauma of being subjected to that history of purging in the long-enduring culture and institution that embraced homophobia and that was dominated by toxic, masculinized heterosexism.

Our research done in the 1990s is the only study done in the pre-LGBT class action settlement time. Except for our study, the story of partners or spouses of the LGBT purge survivors remains unknown, invisible and unacknowledged.

With respect to being a veteran, from the outside, I am a success story, yet I walk around with the psychological wounds of having endured the marginalization of being an LGBT member during the purge years and of being a woman who served during those years—less than welcoming times. I often wonder whether anyone thinks of the ongoing impact that this has.

Does anyone wonder where the perpetrators are? I think about this often when Remembrance Day approaches, when I seek help from Veterans Affairs, if I'm going to a Legion or if I attend a gathering of veterans.

I also wonder what VAC and the military know about Métis, Métis veterans, Métis experiences and Métis histories. Have they thought about Louis Riel and how he died at the hands of Canada's military? He died for his people, defending them, their homes and livelihoods, yet he was charged with treason and hanged.

It's a challenge for me, on the one hand, to be a proud veteran who served their country and, on the other hand, to hold this knowledge of how the Métis were treated historically. I've yet to reconcile that contradiction. I wonder how much the VAC and the military know or acknowledge that part of Métis history.

Thank you. Maarsii for this time and for hearing me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much for your presentation, Dr. Gouliquer.

We'll now go to Debbie Eisan.

You have five minutes for your statement. Please go ahead.

[Debbie Eisan, Community Events Manager, Mi'kmaw Native Friendship Centre, Assembly of First Nations Veterans Council]

Thank you. Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that we are gathered here today on the Anishinabe Algonquin territory.

[Witness spoke in Ojibwa]

[English]

My name is Debbie Eisan. I am a 36-year veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces. I am originally from Batchewana First Nation in Ontario. I now reside in Nova Scotia, where my navy career brought me. My 36-year career took me from 1975 to 2011. I retired on a Friday in 2011, took my seaboots off and put on moccasins on the Monday. I've been at the Mi'kmaw Native Friendship Centre ever since.

Today I am here as a first nation veteran and representative of the Assembly of First Nations' first nations veterans council. The first nations veterans council advocates for first nations veterans, families and communities, and provides a voice to the concerns raised by first nations veterans who have suffered from the trauma of service or war and its impact on families over generations.

First nations peoples have a long history of service in the Canadian Armed Forces, with many veterans returning to their communities after their service. The first nations veterans council recognizes the unique challenges faced by these veterans and has made supporting them a top priority. We come to share the untold stories, the unsung heroism and the ongoing challenges indigenous veterans face, specifically first nation veterans who have served this nation with unwavering dedication and sacrifice.

Key priorities of the first nations veterans council include, but are not limited to, advocating for better access to veterans' benefits and services for indigenous veterans; promoting cultural sensitivity in veterans supports programs; addressing the specific health needs of indigenous veterans, including mental health supports; and preserving and honouring the legacy of indigenous military service.

Key areas of concern raised by the first nations veterans council are as follows.

First is discrimination, as many first nation veterans were denied benefits, lost their Indian status and were excluded from memorials and Remembrance Day ceremonies. This shameful treatment is a stain on our nation's history that we must acknowledge and rectify.

Supporting indigenous veterans across diverse first nation communities represents unique challenges, as geographic isolation of some communities makes access to services difficult. There are also cultural and linguistic barriers in accessing mainstream veterans services, historical distrust of government institutions among some indigenous peoples and limited resources in many first nation communities for veterans support.

Challenges faced by female indigenous veterans include health care disparities: Female veterans often struggle to receive gender-specific care within the veterans health administration system, which has historically been male-oriented, with limited access to gynecological and reproductive health services, inadequate screening and treatment for conditions more common in women, and lack of privacy in some Veterans Affairs facilities that were not designed with women in mind.

Female veterans experience higher rates of military sexual trauma compared to their male counterparts, leading to long-term psychological effects, a higher prevalence of PTSD related to sexual assault or harassment during their service, and difficulty in reporting and seeking help due to fear of retaliation or stigma. With family and caregiver responsibilities, many female veterans face unique challenges in balancing their post-service lives with family obligations, with a higher likelihood of being single parents and of having difficulties in accessing child care during medical appointments or job training.

Indigenous female veterans often face cultural disconnects when seeking support services, a lack of culturally competent care in mainstream veteran support systems and difficulty in accessing traditional healing practices within Veterans Affairs health care. Many indigenous communities are located in remote areas, creating additional barriers to accessing veteran services, with limited access to Veterans Affairs facilities and specialized care, and challenges to participating in job training programs or educational opportunities.

The legacy of historical trauma can impact indigenous female veterans' willingness to seek help from government institutions. There is a hesitancy to engage with Veterans Affairs services due to past negative experiences with government agencies. There's a need for trust-building initiatives and community-based support systems.

Addressing the unique needs of female veterans, and particularly indigenous female veterans, requires targeted approaches and policies.

Recognizing and addressing these challenges, AFN's collaboration with Veterans Affairs Canada resulted in the signature of an AFN-VAC letter of understanding that focuses on expanding outreach, enhancing first nations representation in commemoration activities and establishing a historical record of first nations veterans.

The letter of understanding focuses on four key pillars. The first is access and expanded outreach activities for first nations veterans and their families. The second is establishing clear points of contact for first nations veterans' matters at VAC. The third is increasing indigenous representation in commemoration-related activities. The fourth is supporting the establishment of a historical record of first nations veterans and soldiers who have served in times of war, military conflicts and peace, including those undocumented by Canada.

Addressing the unique needs of female veterans, particularly indigenous female veterans, requires targeted approaches and policies. By recognizing and addressing these specific challenges, we can better support all veterans in their post-service lives.

Thank you. Meegwetch.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Knockwood, I know you would like to say something for an opening statement. Please go ahead.

[Alan Knockwood, Member, Assembly of First Nations Veterans Council]

My name is Alan Knockwood. I'm also one of the representatives of the Assembly of First Nations veterans council. I represent Nova Scotia.

I will now talk about what the first nations veterans council has been undertaking in the research on homelessness among first nations veterans. I'll then talk about phase two of the letter of understanding.

The Assembly of First Nations has recently undertaken to support the first nations veterans council on investigating homelessness among first nations veterans in Canada. The research project will allow the Assembly of First Nations to identify the distinct ways in which homelessness impacts first nations veterans, such as compounding the impacts of direct and intergenerational trauma caused by the Indian residential school system and the sixties scoop, and PTSD as a result of military service.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that there is currently a lack of culturally appropriate support for first nations veterans, which leads to an increased risk of homelessness and contributes to first nations' overrepresentation in the homeless veteran population—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me. I think we have a problem with the interpretation.

Mr. May.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

It was making a weird chiming noise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I know that from English to French, we have a problem, but....

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

It's a weird chiming noise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

It's not working. Okay.

I'm sorry, Mr. Knockwood. I'm going to suspend for a minute or two in order to repair this problem.

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting back to order.

Mr. Knockwood, you have the floor for your opening remarks. I'm sorry for the interruption.

[Alan Knockwood]

As I was saying, anecdotal evidence suggests that there is currently a lack of culturally appropriate support for first nations veterans, which leads to an increased risk of homelessness and contributes to first nations' overrepresentation in the homeless veteran population.

The Assembly of First Nations is advocating for a culturally appropriate network of support and services available to first nations veterans, particularly ensuring that first nations have the resources and the jurisdiction to provide these services themselves.

The Assembly of First Nations' first nations veterans council is currently developing phase two of the letter of understanding with Veterans Affairs Canada. This phase will build on the shared commitment outlined in the letter of understanding signed in April 2023. This aims to collaboratively address the specific needs of first nations veterans, serving members and their families. The goal is to enhance their overall well-being by establishing a framework on how Veterans Affairs Canada can create and support culturally appropriate healing models in service delivery.

The letter of understanding focuses on four pillars. The first is to ensure the meaningful inclusion of first nations culture in Assembly of First Nations and Veterans Affairs Canada-led commemorative ceremonies and events. The second is to document and share the history of those who served. The third is culturally appropriate supports for veterans. The fourth is to address the barriers to access to Veterans Affairs Canada programs and services.

Lastly, I'd like to thank you again for inviting us to attend on the Anishinabe Algonquin territory. Thank you for your attention to this crucial matter. We look forward to your questions and to a productive dialogue that will lead to a tangible improvement in the lives of veterans across Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

We're going to start this discussion right now.

I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for their opening remarks. Thank you also for your service.

I believe that, based on an agreement among the parties, the second vice‑chair, Luc Desilets, is allowed to make a brief special intervention.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's very kind of my colleagues to grant me this right to speak.

I want to speak to you today about a situation that I consider urgent and that I've been grappling with for the past three days. One of our committee's objectives is to work on the services offered to veterans and to improve them, if possible, so as not to leave these members of the military who defended Quebec and Canada on their own.

Last Friday, I was made aware of an extremely serious situation that I can't ignore and that you will probably hear about in the coming days.

We all know that the wait time for services or benefits is not acceptable. Wait times have always been exceeded for decades. This committee has been working on this issue for a very long time, perhaps too long. Here in committee, we have heard about atrocities that have shaken us as human beings. We all have a responsibility as parliamentarians to intervene as best we can.

The Auditor General clearly said last year that the Department of Veterans Affairs was doing very little to remedy the various problems we've seen here in committee, which were identified a very long time ago.

Former deputy minister Paul Tellier very recently said that the public service doesn't work anymore and that the federal government no longer provides the services it is there to provide.

As I speak, a man in Quebec City, veteran and former master corporal Michel Marceau, is on day 6 of a hunger strike to alert us and force us to take action. This man, who served with honour, is now fighting the insane bureaucracy at Veterans Affairs. He's unable to get a family doctor and is constantly fighting for compensation that doesn't come or comes years later. He told me that he was desperate to find psychological support for himself, and particularly for his son. He's caught up in what looks like a remake of the film The Twelve Tasks of Asterix.

You will agree that each day we do nothing, in a way we're betraying those who have given so much for us. Michel Marceau is just one example, but he is pushing the envelope right now by going on a hunger strike that could be harmful to his health and quite simply threaten his life.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me, Mr. Desilets. There's a technical problem with the interpretation.

We're going to suspend the meeting while we fix the problem, but, if the committee members agree, I could first let you finish your intervention.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I think I have less than a minute left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

In that case, please finish, Mr. Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. We have a moral and social responsibility to act.

Situations like the one I just described to you may be happening without our knowledge in Quebec and Canada. I was alerted to this one. I've spoken with the veteran. I had to call 911 to make sure he was fit to continue. People intervened.

I would just urge committee members to remember why we're here and what our priorities are. In our interventions for this committee, we should not take situations like this lightly—and I'm not saying we do—they can be dramatic.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you for your comments, Mr. Desilets. I understand your contribution and the sympathy you have in such situations.

Colleagues, we will resume the meeting with the witnesses we had the pleasure of inviting.

We're going to start with—

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'm sorry, but I can barely hear you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'm sorry. I'm going to suspend one more time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting back to order.

I'm sorry, but we did not expect those communication problems.

If you have any additional information, even though you've given only your opening remarks, you can send it to the clerk and we will keep that for our report.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'm really sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Chair, but we're hearing two voices in French.