Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[Alan Knockwood]

Go for it.

[Debbie Eisan]

Okay.

From my perspective, I have been talking a long time, whenever I can use my voice, to reach indigenous veterans, especially in the urban context, and setting up offices—part-time, once a month or whatever—at the friendship centres across Canada. There are 126 friendship centres across Canada. Veterans go to the urban environment. Where they're going for help is through those friendship centres. That's one aspect of it.

The other aspect is that, for those indigenous veterans who are in remote areas, access to those services is very difficult, especially if they're homeless.

The other thing is for Veterans Affairs to look at and consider treatment from a spirituality aspect for us veterans, like sweat lodges and having access to elders to be able to talk to them to get through trauma and times like that. It's being back in a community and working through those spirituality aspects.

[Alan Knockwood]

We have to.... Wouldn't it be nice to have an Indian or a native person actually working at VAC? Period.

We'd get a lot done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you—

[Alan Knockwood]

We can do it, you know,

in English, in French,

ilnu-eck-took.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Now, by video conference, we have our colleague Rachel Blaney.

You have five minutes, Ms. Blaney. Go ahead.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I thank all of our witnesses and give a special thank you to those of you who have served.

I also give a very big, warm hello to Mr. Knockwood. I really enjoyed our time in Normandy, when we were there, recognizing D-Day. I'm really happy to see you again here in this role.

My first question is for Ms. Eisan.

I was really compelled by your testimony. One of the things I was really moved by was how you spoke about female indigenous veterans and how those specific needs seem to be left out and not honoured. Could expand on what that looks like and what knowledge you have of that, so the committee can better understand it? What solutions do you think might be helpful?

[Debbie Eisan]

When I speak about female indigenous veterans, the way that we do our ceremonies and the way that we do things culturally are a little bit different. When we're in sweat lodge ceremonies, female veterans—females, period—do not go into the sweat lodge. Because when we're on our moon time, we're considered to be very powerful, we don't take part in ceremonies and we don't take part in smudging ceremonies. These are the teachings that these indigenous women veterans need to get from female elders. The teachings are very different from what male elders would give to women. In order for female indigenous veterans to have access to culturally appropriate and spiritual...moving ahead, they need to have that ability to have one-on-one with an elder from their community.

I live in Halifax now, but I'm from Anishinabe territory by Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. If I was having difficulty and I needed to speak to an elder, I would need to speak to an Anishinabe female elder. I can't do that in Mi'kmaq territory, even though I respect the territory. I need to go back to my own territory to speak to Anishinabe women elders.

The way that our teachings come is very different, and I think that this is not an easy path to go down, what we're saying to you. It's going to take time. It's going to take a lot of understanding, and it's going to take a lot of self-reflection on how Veterans Affairs normally does things. It's looking from a two-eyed seeing approach—from the western eye in the way that you would normally work with veterans, but then from the indigenous eye in how indigenous people would work through issues and through problems. Elder Albert Marshall from the Mi'kmaq Eskasoni was the one who talked about the two-eyed seeing approach, and it's something that I've worked with my whole career, being able to move forward with that.

They are the teachings that we have to go with from the woman's perspective, and that's why it's so different.

Meegwetch. Thank you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

I'm going to combine two questions in one and have you answer, Debbie, and then Alan after.

The first part is that you talked a lot about the spiritual supports that are needed and, of course, that they must come from an elder. I'm just wondering if there is any capacity for VAC to pay honorariums to these amazing elders who are helping with the healing. Are they even acknowledged in that role?

The second part is that you talked about the distrust of government agencies, which I believe has a special nuance for indigenous people that the rest of the population may not have. When we talk about culturally appropriate training so people from VAC can address that, do you think that's something that would help them deliver better services to indigenous veterans?

[Alan Knockwood]

I can only answer the second part of that question, in that culturally appropriate has to be geographically appropriate as well. We can't have a blanket policy that goes across Canada, because the Tlingit and the Mi'kmaq are two separate nations and have two ways of thinking, which is good. We have to have someone in those facilities from that culture, and we have none now.

When a person comes back with PTSD, for one example, the first thing they do is assign them a psychiatrist. Well, a psychiatrist knows diddly-squat about who I am, what I am or why I am as a native person. Whatever “treatment” I'd be getting is already beginning to be culturally inappropriate. If I go to a sweat lodge and get the healing from that, that works.

When I came back from Vietnam, I did not go to a psychiatrist because it was like talking to that wall; it just bounced off. He had absolutely no idea what I was talking about. I went to a spiritualist, and I went through a ceremony in the Navajo tradition for a start. Then I went to a Mi'kmaq spiritualist with the late David Gehue. I can honestly say that I don't have PTSD anymore because it was a culturally appropriate treatment for it the entire time. Let's start there.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Blaney.

We're going to stop right here.

I'm curious, Ms. Eisan. I know that you are proud to wear your medals. You have one on the right side. Can you tell us why?

[Debbie Eisan]

This is the aboriginal veterans medallion. This is part of the work that we have done in the Canadian Armed Forces—when I was still in uniform—to allow indigenous Canadian Armed Forces members to wear this medallion when we go to indigenous events. We had the braid instituted in the same way and the Métis can wear a sash when they're in uniform. That's what this is.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'd like to thank all of you.

Thank you to Dr. Lynne Gouliquer, sociologist and Métis veteran.

We also had the Assembly of First Nations' veteran's council.

From the Assembly of First Nations Veterans Council, we have heard from Debbie Eisan, community events manager at the Mi'kmaw Native Friendship Centre, and Alan Knockwood, member.

We will suspend the meeting briefly so we can welcome the witnesses who will be with us for the next hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We are resuming our meeting.

For the second part of committee today, we have with us, from the Neeginan Centre, as a witness by video conference, Mr. William Shead, board of directors chairperson. From the Vimy Foundation, we have Caitlin Bailey, executive director, by video conference.

Welcome. You're going to have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Let's say congratulations to the Vimy Foundation.

I know she recently moved into Maison Louis‑Joseph‑Forget, so I congratulate you for that.

I'm going to start with you, Ms. Caitlin Bailey. You have five minutes for your opening statement. After that, we'll ask you some questions.

Please open your mic and go ahead.

[Caitlin Bailey, Executive Director, The Vimy Foundation]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We did in fact open our new office space last week. We were very happy to have some members of the committee come visit beforehand.

Thank you for that. That's very kind.

Good afternoon. Thank you for the invitation to present to the standing committee. My name is Caitlin Bailey. I'm here today representing the Vimy Foundation, a First World War commemoration and education organization that has worked with the Department of Veterans Affairs since 2010.

Our mission in youth and public education includes running major national programs that tell the stories of Canadians who lived through the First World War from 1914 to 1918.

These programs reach hundreds of thousands of Canadians each year.

As part of our work, we engage with many equity-seeking communities. We have committed to weaving the experiences of indigenous and Black veterans during the First World War throughout our programming, focusing on their service during the conflict and highlighting the particular difficulties they faced receiving recognition for the same.

In a recent national educator survey that we performed in the fall of 2024, 50% of responding educators noted that they already teach Black and indigenous experiences of the First World War, but that they lack sufficient digital educational resources for their teaching.

In addition, our internal surveys of young participants and our programs reveal that more people want to learn more about these communities and their experiences during the First World War.

Organizations like ours, and the many others that have presented during this committee study, serve to help address these identified gaps. Our suite of digital projects leading up to Vimy's 110th anniversary in 2027 will reach hundreds of thousands of Canadians and highlight stories of many First World War veterans, including Black and indigenous veterans. However, they require investment to help us meet the needs of the educators and the public we serve.

I'd like to thank you again for your attention. I'm looking forward to answering your questions.

Thank you again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much for your remarks, Ms. Bailey.

I'm going to invite Mr. Shead from the Neeginan Centre to give his opening remarks.

Please go ahead.

[William Shead, Board of Directors Chairperson, Neeginan Centre]

Good afternoon.

Thank you for this opportunity to appear at this meeting of the committee.

As the chair said, I am Bill Shead. I'm an 85-year-old Cree member of the Peguis First Nation, a navy veteran and currently chair of the Neeginan Centre, where indigenous people are helped in their transition to urban life.

This is a rather unique approach that I'm going to be talking about. It doesn't deal directly with services to veterans, but I think it's a model that perhaps those who are involved in delivering services to veterans, indigenous and non-indigenous, might learn from.

As migration of indigenous people into urban centres increased, governments rolled out programs and funding to NGOs—that's non-governmental organizations or charities, not-for-profits—to help indigenous people adjust to urban life, and most programs addressed transition issues in an ad hoc silo fashion. NGOs operated independently from one another, yet on associated issues affecting transition, different government agencies would fund different NGOs to operate programs for each issue, such as literacy, training, etc.

Complicating matters further, funding for rental space for program delivery was often inadequate. NGOs were limited to renting space as is, where is, and the spaces were unrenovated, not suitable for service and in difficult to access sites.

Working together, several NGOs in Winnipeg resolved to improve workspace and service delivery shortcomings. They incorporated as the Aboriginal Centre of Winnipeg, and in 1990.... I'm sorry; that's when they incorporated. In 1992, they purchased Winnipeg's historic CP railroad station.

I have been associated with the Neeginan Centre since the beginning of 1993, initially as CEO responsible for the restoration and renovation of the station into a one-stop service centre. On completion, the 120-year-old building emerged as an operational service centre that the people who first incorporated as the Aboriginal Centre of Winnipeg envisioned.

At the Neeginan Centre, indigenous people receive a variety of education, training and support services to help them improve their life opportunities. Two major NGOs operate out of the centre. I'll talk about each of them.

Neeginan Education, Training and Employment Services provides education, training, student support services and employment opportunities. It operates the Aboriginal Community Campus; Neeginan College of Applied Technology; Kookum's Place Daycare; Neeginan Village, a student housing complex; and the aboriginal aerospace initiative and technical training centre.

The Aboriginal Health & Wellness Centre is a community-based health and wellness resource agency. Programs and services offered include a primary care clinic, community outreach and education, and health promotion and prevention with the services of physicians, nurses, community health workers and traditional healers. Abinotci Mino-Ayawin is a children's health head start program. They also operate a fetal alcohol syndrome and effects prevention program.

In the late 1990s, aboriginal veterans argued for more public recognition. This led to the mayor of the City of Winnipeg declaring Aboriginal Veterans Day for the city in 1993. In 1994, the Neeginan Centre staff and students put on the first Aboriginal Veterans Day service in the rotunda of the Neeginan Centre. That service has continued ever since, with the exception of the COVID years.

There is one other program I wanted to speak very briefly about. I'm a member of the board of directors of Indspire. Indspire is a charity that raises money for post-secondary education for indigenous students.

This program started when the former name for Indspire was the Canadian Native Arts Foundation. It took responsibility for the stewardship of the national aboriginal veterans scholarships fund, initiated by the Government of Canada on a recommendation of the Senate committee on indigenous veterans, chaired by the late Senator Len Marchand.

The $1.1-million fund has stimulated fantastic growth in the work of Indspire. It is now funding, through scholarships and bursaries, indigenous students pursuing careers in post-secondary education and training. Since 1996, Indspire has distributed $270 million in scholarships and bursaries to some 74,000 students. This year alone we will have distributed $32 million to 8,400 students. These two organizations, Indspire and Neeginan, were really the initiative of indigenous leaders who took a very great chance.

Neeginan purchased a 120,000-square-foot building with an idea of turning it into a better place to deliver services in a coordinated fashion. It succeeded.

Indspire, stimulated by the requirement to have responsibility for a fund that had to be used to deliver scholarships and bursaries beyond its initial scope of arts, now has succeeded in what I think is beyond its wildest dreams, delivering so many scholarships to so many students in the past 20-some years.

My association with two of these organizations is indicative of the veterans who have been involved in the work of all of these efforts to improve life for indigenous people generally returning to the city. The fact that the Neeginan Centre alone has successfully proven that you can be successful delivering services in a coordinated one-stop service centre perhaps is something that the Department of Veterans Affairs could look at, as well as others who want to help veterans who are returning to life in home communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Shead, for your opening remarks.

Because of technical problems, we started late—

[William Shead]

I understand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

—and some of our colleagues cannot stay longer than 5:30, so I will give four minutes to each group to ask our witnesses questions.

I invite, first of all, Mrs. Wagantall for four minutes, please.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Shead, thank you so much for all that you have done. Clearly, you have invested in ways that encourage and inspire other people to also assist with what you have accomplished here.

I have one question for you. We have talked often at this committee about one-stop shops over the years, and what you have is an exemplary model.

Why do you think that Veterans Affairs needs to recreate it? Why would we not ask Veterans Affairs to provide the funding veterans need and allow them to go to places like this? We know that veterans serving veterans—veterans helping veterans—is the best way to see them succeed, because those are the people who understand the best.

Do you see this model that you have serving the needs of indigenous veterans?

[William Shead]

I really don't want to be critical of the public servants in departments like the Department of Veterans Affairs, who have a worthy client base who need service.

However, if you look at some of the NGOs that are out there—and I'll just use the general term “NGO” to represent any non-profit organization or charity that's doing work to deliver service—they sometimes can do the job in a more expeditious way because they can call on other resources outside of, say, what the government has available.

For example, when we were doing the railroad station conversion, we used something like 25 different contribution agreements from maybe a dozen federal departments and provincial departments.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Sir, I'm sorry—

[William Shead]

That's it.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I hate that I only have four minutes.

I appreciate that. Could you send us some notes on your perspective?

I'm not in any way trying to belittle Veterans Affairs. It's a question of what their role should be and what would be most efficient.