Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I will suspend the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting back to order.

Colleagues, I was about to tell you that we're going to have only one round of questions. I suggest five minutes for each group, because we have another hour with other witnesses.

I'm pleased to invite the first vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Blake Richards, to go ahead for five minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

First of all, let me just say to all of the veterans who are with us today, thank you for your service.

I would also like to add my voice to what Mr. Desilets had to say. We often hear veterans talk about a triple-D policy. There are so many delays and denials that lead veterans into places where hunger strikes become necessary, where they feel like they have to take their personal details to the media and where unfortunately many veterans end up committing suicide. Others have even been offered assisted suicide by the department itself. That's disgraceful and shameful, and I'm glad that you raised it. I want to add my voice to the fact that this is not right and something must be done.

Let me turn to you...and I'll leave it to you, Debbie and Alan, to decide who would like to answer on behalf of the AFN veterans council. I'm sure you're familiar with the program that the Canadian Armed Forces has started called the Black Bear program.

Do you think that programs like that, which are helping to bring more indigenous people into the military, are going to serve to help indigenous members of our forces have a better experience in our military?

[Debbie Eisan]

I can answer that question.

I am very intimate with the Black Bear program, the Raven program, the ALOY program and the CFAE program. In my time in the military, I was part of a team that brought those programs to the Canadian Armed Forces. They are excellent programs for indigenous people.

The problem with those programs is aftercare. Through those programs, indigenous members decide to join the Canadian Armed Forces, and they come in. There's a problem with discrimination and racism within the ranks. I know the Canadian Armed Forces are working very hard to try to eliminate that.

The issues now facing indigenous people are when they come out of uniform, and they have to look for care from a spiritual perspective. Our culture and our way is through spirituality, especially when we have to come through very difficult times.

The other one is the pride in who we are as veterans. Our veterans will often not ask for help. It's not just indigenous veterans; it's all veterans. I myself have been down that road looking for help, and you don't want to....

I didn't think I was going to do this.

Because of the pride, you don't want to ask for help, but especially if you're indigenous, our way to helping ourselves is through our spirituality. If that is not offered, it's very difficult to go down that road.

Our families are a very huge part of who we are in our culture. When Veterans Affairs officials are working with an indigenous veteran, they have to also work with our families through our culture, through our spirituality and through our ways. If we cannot connect that way, our indigenous veterans will often fall between the cracks.

Yes, I agree. I opened the Black Bear program when it first went into Borden. I have a little bit of guilt from that because of what happens after those kids go through that program. What happens to them if they decide to join? I'm telling them a career in the Canadian Armed Forces is a great career. However, when they join, and something happens with them, they don't get that care through Veterans Affairs.

It's not frustration, but that's where I'm focusing my energies—trying to make sure that Veterans Affairs understands the spiritual and the cultural aspects of looking after our indigenous veterans.

Meegwetch. Thank you.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

It's like you anticipated the second question I had, which was that second part to that, which was about the follow-up when they become a veteran and if you felt that Veterans Affairs was prepared to deal with that. What I think I've heard very clearly from you is that you don't believe they are at the present moment. You spoke specifically to a couple of things, but there's one of them you didn't elaborate on a whole lot, which was the family portion of it. I'll give you that opportunity,

I would actually say this is certainly one that I think is not unique to indigenous veterans. I think that, for all veterans, there needs to be more done to ensure that the families are a part of everything. They're a part of the service, so they should be a part of receiving support and care afterwards and should be a part of the opportunities that are made available to veterans. Do you want to speak just a little bit more to what more could be done to support the families?

I've talked different times about even some of the programs that are made available, educational programs and things like that. Should they not be made available to spouses or family members as well in cases where maybe the spouse becomes the breadwinner for the family, for example?

[Debbie Eisan]

Absolutely, and thank you.

I think that it's important for indigenous families to be involved. Back in the time when the treaties were signed, the indigenous folks signed those treaties to fight for Turtle Island. They didn't have to join the Canadian Forces. They chose to because they looked to hold up their side of the treaties. That's leaving their families, leaving their community, leaving their culture behind. If we come forward to nowadays like Afghanistan, the time in Rwanda, those kinds of things, when the veteran goes through those programs, if they get a program to help them through their PTSD or help them through trauma, the families have to be included because the families go through that with the veteran.

My husband is a veteran and when he came back from overseas the commanding officer sent a letter to say, your husband is coming home, and if he all of a sudden flies underneath a coffee table.... I knew that because I was military, but a lot of spouses wouldn't have known that. Why is he flying under a coffee table if he hears a loud noise? How come he can't sleep in a soft bed? It's those kinds of things. When a veteran is going through those kinds of things, those kinds of care, the families have to be included so that they understand the trauma that the veteran went through.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Knockwood, would you like to conclude with a few words because time is running out?

[Alan Knockwood]

The cultural component is very important. We're all treaty people, each and every one of us. You signed it. I signed it. My father signed it. My grandfather signed it. My stepfather served with the Royal Canadian Air Force. My biological father served with the merchant mariners. He wasn't even recognized as a veteran for the longest time. In fact, when he finally was recognized as a veteran, he got his check 10 days after he died. I don't know if he cashed it or not, but I took it to where he was. When we come home from service, we are left with a blank slate. There's absolutely no place to go.

It took us years to get the Canadian veterans administration to sit at our table and write this MOU. It's a learning curve for them and for us. It has to get things done, but the need for these things to be done is immediate. We're running into situations like he brought up with what this poor person in Quebec is doing right now. That goes on in all the reserves I know of with veterans. We put these veterans under the wheels for no reason whatsoever, complete ignorance. That's unfair. It's not right. I don't care what colour the veteran might be. If they're going to be ignored, why do we have a veterans administration? The bureaucracy in that administration is so slow. We can improve it. You and I can improve it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Knockwood.

We'll now go to Parliamentary Secretary Randeep Sarai, for five minutes.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to both of you, Mr. Knockwood and Ms. Eisan.

Maybe I'll start with you, Mr. Knockwood.

What does the recognition of indigenous veterans mean to you personally, and how can it be done in a meaningful way that respects both your service and your culture?

[Alan Knockwood]

One, we have to recognize the fact that the Mi'kmaq people were one of the first peoples in North America to have to deal with colonial peoples. Our treaties were all Peace and Friendship Treaties at the very beginning. We still live by these treaties. These documents didn't die in 1762, 1763 or whenever. They are alive and well right now. We have a big war going on with fishermen on the south shore of Nova Scotia. It's over rights to allow us to fish, which is ironic, because we taught them how to fish. Ouch.

When a person signs up with the Canadian Armed Forces, or even the armed forces in America, we do that because of a treaty obligation. We stand by that treaty obligation, because it is alive and well. What we're asking for, as veterans, is to make sure that living arrangement carries through to when we're finished with our agreement. It hasn't yet. A lot of us are out there in the cold—not just natives but all veterans.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

What advice would you give to younger indigenous individuals who may be considering a career in the military?

[Alan Knockwood]

I have mixed feelings on both sides of that. We're looking at a change in the United States right now, with the idiot who's coming into power siding with Putin in Russia. We have a very volatile situation happening. Do I want to send my son and daughter into what possibly might be a nuclear war? Not really. Those are the realities we have to live with right now. We are living in Canada, supposedly a safe place. I'm sorry, but we're living right next to the elephant down there, and the elephant is going to roll over any moment now.

Right now, I would discourage them from joining the armed forces, because the certainty of death is too real. I already saw it in Vietnam. It's very hard for me to send someone over to something like that.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Ms. Eisan, can you elaborate on that? What advice would you have?

[Debbie Eisan]

One side of me agrees wholeheartedly with what Alan said. However, if I were talking to a young person who wanted to join the Canadian Armed Forces, I would tell them to stay true to their roots and to who they are as an indigenous person. Never let that go. If we do, we lose part of ourselves—who we are. We have to stay true to what our ancestors fought for—for us to be here today.

One of my jobs was as an indigenous aboriginal recruiting adviser for the Canadian Armed Forces. I wholeheartedly stood behind recruiting young indigenous people into the Canadian Armed Forces. Now my tune is changing a little, because I have a granddaughter looking to join. I honestly don't know what to say to her and whether to encourage her or not, because of everything that's happening and all of the stuff going on, like Alan said. Ever since she was a baby, I've brought her up with her culture, the knowledge of our teachings and the strength a woman should have in who she is. I don't want her to lose that. I'll never tell her no. However, as a grandmother, I will be doubly afraid if she joins up.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Briefly, as I have a few seconds left, on that, are you saying that more as a indigenous mother or as a mother in general? I want to know. Is it a—

[Debbie Eisan]

I'd say both.

It's both because in our families the grandmother is the one who gives the teachings in our culture. I've spent more time with my grandchildren, with my granddaughter, than I have with my.... I spent 36 years in the military. You have to do what you've got to do, but the time I've spent with my grandchildren.... I'm closer with my grandchildren for the very reason that our culture says that the grandmother and the grandfather teach the children—their grandchildren—the culture, the teachings and the way of our people.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Sarai.

I would remind members to keep in mind that Dr. Gouliquer is also online to answer questions.

I now invite Mr. Desilets to take the floor. He has the next five minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Eisan, in your opinion, do indigenous veterans receive the same services as white veterans?

[Debbie Eisan]

No, I don't, and I say this not lightly, because a lot of times.... I work at the Mi'kmaw Native Friendship Centre. I've been there since December 2011. Every day, I see veterans come in that door, and I connect with them. They can't get ahold.... Sometimes they are too nervous. I try to get them to go to Veterans Affairs for services. A lot of them don't want to go into government agencies because of the way they have been treated in the Canadian Armed Forces.

The way they need to be treated, especially for post-traumatic stress disorder, or because of the way they've been treated in the military and don't know how to get the help.... They need to be treated from a cultural way, from a cultural perspective. You cannot treat them the same way you treat other veterans. No disrespect to other veterans, but the way we are brought up is through sharing circles and through sweat lodges.

That's what helped me from my trauma when I came back from Rwanda. It was through sweat lodges and talking with my elders. That's what helped me through very difficult times. I can't say whether just going through talking to a psychologist would have helped, but I don't think they get the same treatment. People need to look at it from a different perspective with indigenous folks.

Thank you. Meegwetch.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Knockwood, I think you want to add something.

[Alan Knockwood]

When you look at the veterans' homes across Canada—and I mean really look at them and walk through them and walk down those halls—how many native veterans do you see in there? None. Why? It's because, more often than not, they're turned down. They're turned away. They're not good enough. They don't have enough money for it. They don't have this, and they don't have that. There is a whole multitude of reasons to not fulfill an obligation that veterans are entitled to.

I went to Normandy for the 80th anniversary. There were three native people: me, a native man from Ontario and a Métis man. We had to hold up a ceremony for a lot of the people because it was culturally inappropriate, for the most part, and we added that native component, a night of spirituality, to the program. I had Brigadier-General Robar come back after a session at the abbey, and he came to me when I sang the Honour Song there and said, “Thank you. You made my trip worthwhile.”

That's the part people fail to see—that we are a viable part of the fabric of veterans but we're excluded. If we are added to that fabric, we make that fabric whole. That's all we ask, to be included in that thing. Cultural appropriation.... For our culture, the only thing it can do is nurture what's out there. Give us a chance to give that gift, and it is a gift that we are willing to give.

Thank you.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

Do any of you have any potential solutions to propose to us to bring the two communities closer together and to provide you with the same services and treat you adequately?

[Debbie Eisan]

Do you want me to go for it?