Veterans Affairs Committee on May 6th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the thirteenth meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the committee is undertaking the study of the main estimates 2022-23. A number of votes were referred to the committee on Tuesday, March 1, 2022: votes 1 and 5 under the Department of Veterans Affairs; vote 1 under the Veterans Review and Appeal Board, minus the adoption of the interim supply on March 24, 2022, in the amount of three-twelfths of the total amount.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

Today's meeting is also taking place in the webinar format. Webinars are for public committee meetings and are available only to members, their staff and witnesses. Members enter immediately as active participants. All functionalities for active participants remain the same. Staff will be non-active participants and can therefore only view the meeting in gallery view.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute your mike. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

As a reminder, all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

Today, we are pleased to have the Minister of Veterans Affairs with us for the first hour, and we will then have representatives of the department. I will introduce them at the beginning of the second hour.

To begin, I am very pleased to welcome the Honourable Lawrence MacAulay, Minister of Veterans Affairs.

You have the floor, Minister.

You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Please go ahead.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Minister of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Members, thank you for your invitation to update the committee on what our government is doing to support Canada's veteran community.

I'd like to begin by acknowledging the tragic deaths last week of four military officer cadets at the Royal Military College in Kingston. On behalf of the government, I extend my heartfelt condolences to the family and friends of the four young adults and to the entire RMC community.

It's always a pleasure to appear before you, and I want to thank you for your recent work on veterans monuments, service dogs and other important issues for Canadian veterans and their families.

Mr. Chair, along with some colleagues on this committee, I was honoured over the past few weeks to pay my respects at the war cemeteries and monuments in France, Belgium and the Netherlands. From Vimy to Passchendaele to Holten, I was reminded of the enormous sacrifice that Canadians have made in the service of peace around the world. Seeing the Canadian flag flying overseas is a touching reminder that the people of Europe have not forgotten the Canadians who went to fight in the First and Second World Wars.

Along with my colleagues here, we met with the Juno Beach Centre, the local mayor and people from the community to discuss the proposed condo development in the area of the Juno Beach Centre. I also met with my French counterpart to discuss our concerns about this proposed construction. We agreed on the importance to honour the sacrifice of Canadian soldiers who landed at Juno Beach and to never forget the 359 Canadians who fell on the beach on June 6, 1944. We resolved to work together to find a solution to the dispute, making sure that Juno Beach Centre is not negatively impacted, and to guarantee that we protect this historic site for Canada and France.

As you may have heard, the Duke of Sussex announced at the closing ceremonies that Vancouver and Whistler will host the 2025 Invictus games, which is a big deal for Canada. Like all Canadians, I look forward to watching our teams compete on home soil in three years' time.

In terms of service delivery to Canada's veterans, I think it's important to restate that the Government of Canada is fully committed to the health and well-being of veterans and their families. This includes making sure that they're getting answers as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Since February when I was last here, the government confirmed that it will provide nearly $140 million to extend more than 350 staff to work on the backlog. This is great news for the veterans. It will allow us to keep investing in our employees so that we can keep getting decisions out to veterans as quickly as possible.

As of April 29, there were 10,937 applications that were over the standard time. That's more than a 50% decline from the high of over 23,000 when we began investing in the backlog. That is good progress, but we know there's still more work to do, and we are committed to doing it.

As a government we're committed to addressing the backlog and turnaround times. The $5.5 billion of funding in this year's main estimates and an additional commitment made through the 2022 budget will help us meet this goal.

The main estimates reflect nearly $2 billion more in annual spending for Veterans Affairs Canada than when we formed the government in 2015. This is nearly $2 billion more going into the pockets of veterans and, while there is more work to do, that is something we can be proud of.

Let me turn to another issue that is very important to our government. That is veteran homelessness. Simply put, one homeless veteran is too many.

Budget 2022 announced an additional $62.2 million to launch a new veteran homelessness program. This program will provide services and rent supplements to veterans experiencing homelessness and help them get back on their feet. Our programs, like the veterans emergency fund and veteran and family well-being fund, are also key supports to homeless and at-risk veterans.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Minister, thank you so much. Your time is up.

We're going to start a round of questions. We will start with the first vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Frank Caputo.

The floor is yours for six minutes. Please go ahead.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair, and through you, thank you to the minister for appearing. I hope you have had a good time back home in Canada since arriving back here.

I want to pick up where the minister left off with respect to the save Juno Beach matter. I'm wondering if the minister could please update this committee about what has happened since his visit in relation to the campaign to save Juno Beach.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the question.

My honourable colleague is fully aware of the importance because he was with me and other members on the committee when we landed there. He would fully agree that our presence there as a group was vitally important. It is fair to say that we highlighted the issue that is vitally important for Canada.

Especially when we came out of the first meeting, we all saw that Juno Beach was pretty well filled up with younger people. They were speaking French, so they were from France, I would guess. That was vitally important.

We went out for the interview. We had national, regional and local media. We had a lot of news media there. I think Frank would agree and Rachel and Luc would, too. They were with me and I appreciated it so much. It was a combined effort of everybody in the Parliament of Canada to indicate how important we felt it was. The interview was vitally important. I think Frank would agree that when the lady at the centre got out right on the highway and indicated quite clearly what this would do to the traffic and all that, having it on the media made it so much better for me when I went to meet my counterpart in Paris. It was obvious that it was highlighted. In fact, as a group, that's what we wanted to do.

I had a great meeting. I think it's thanks to the effort of us all. We had a meeting with my counterpart. I actually spent over an hour with her. She indicated that she was going to start the process with the regional political officials in the area in order to put a group together to sit down and see if we could come to a proper resolution for Juno Beach.

Without a doubt, that news conference with us all there was vitally important. Now I understand that Juno Beach, the town and the contractor—I'm not sure if I have everybody—will all sit down and try to come to a resolution. It is so vitally important.

Of course, money came up too. My colleagues are fully aware that we don't buy property. We would like to. I know all of us there would like to have just fixed it all up right then, but if there was ever a time for working together as the Government of Canada—and I've been around a long time—that was a prime example of what everybody pulling together can do.

It's not resolved yet. Of course, Frank, you're fully aware that it is under French law. We can't dictate what's going to happen, but I believe, with the way it was put together, it looks very good. I don't think even the contractor really understood what a delicate situation he was dealing with. We never spoke to the contractor, but I don't think there was much of a protest. In fact, I don't think there was much of a protest until we arrived. There was some, but we certainly highlighted it as a group.

Again, I would emphasize the Parliament of Canada working together. That was a prime example and hopefully it will be a great result for Juno Beach and for our veterans, because we all viewed what they were doing. It wasn't put on. These people were right there trying to understand exactly what Canadians did. That's what it's all about. It really would bring you to tears, if you want to know the honest truth. That was basically what happened.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you so much for that.

I have just one minute, so I'll ask you a very important question. It relates to the backlog, and you probably aren't surprised to hear me ask about this.

There was roughly $139 million earmarked for temporary staff to address the backlog. Can you confirm whether all temporary staff have had their contracts renewed and whether this $139 million has been distributed?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Yes, Frank, it's a very important question. You highlighted that issue before it came into play, and it made an interesting discussion the last time we sat down, but that helps, truly.

We got the funding. My understanding is that the full contingent is there to deal with the backlog.

I might turn it over to Steven to give—no, that's the way it is. Yes, they have been hired. That's important, because it gives us a chance to reduce the backlog. That's what we want to continue to do, and now we're on the track of doing it.

Perhaps the deputy might like to comment on that. It's a pretty important issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Minister, but the time is over.

I have to thank Mr. Caputo and now go to Mr. Miao for six minutes.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for your appearance today at our committee.

A colleague asked you some questions about the Juno Beach Centre visit. I want to read a statement from the Juno Beach Centre:

We are not generally opposed to projects like these on former battlegrounds; the French deserve to enjoy the freedoms our veterans’ sacrifice brought them.

Have you heard of any local citizens who live around the Juno Beach Centre who are against the project? As you mentioned it in your update, can you share a bit more on that insight?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Yes, without question, we met with the mayor in the town. It's hard to get it all in, but we met with the mayor and concerned citizens from the area. I guess that would be the proper way to word it.

Without question, it's obvious that the town itself isn't against a development or anything else, but it's the way this is laid out. In many ways, it was so fortunate that we had the Parliament of Canada represented there. It certainly put a strong voice to it.

We had the mayor of the town and the people who were concerned about Juno Beach. They're not against development or anything at all like that, but the fact is when you look at this and see the way it's developed.... We were there as a group and it was explained so clearly what it would do with the one highway, just one street into Juno Beach. If you're going to have a lot of traffic and a lot of condominium development, the safety factor could come into play too. It was well explained in the news conference, which was a great help to me when I met my counterpart in Paris. It would also indicate that if we're not careful, it could reduce the number of bus tours and such that go there.

Without question, I think we're doing better in this country.

Without question, it's so important and they truly care. If you go to France, Belgium, the Netherlands and other places, too, you'll see how important it is for their school children to learn exactly what took place in the Second World War.

It is quite a thing. They tell me that young men and women from away over the sea, as we used to say, came over and kicked the Nazis out, and all they said to them was, “Live your life the way you wish to live it.” I've had the privilege of being around veterans affairs for a number of years and it's pretty heartwarming to hear that.

Without question, this is why the people who are connected to Juno Beach are so concerned that the facility is wide open and widely used. I think my colleague would agree that the day we were there it was used. As I said before, when we came out of the meeting, there were a lot of young people there, and that's pretty nice to see.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you for sharing that with us.

In your remarks, you mentioned this year's budget on helping with veterans homelessness.

How will a homeless veteran benefit from the new veteran homelessness program, which has $62.2 million in this year's budget, building on the $45 million in last year's budget? What more is being done by Veterans Affairs Canada to resolve the issue of veterans homelessness?

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

I appreciate your question. I appreciate all questions.

Of course, one homeless veteran, as everybody would agree around this table, is one too many. That's why it's so important that now over $100 million is allocated to make sure we can put the program in place, working with Ahmed Hussen and his budget. There's $70 billion, I believe, in that budget. We know it's there.

Our goal is to make sure there are no homeless veterans in this country. It's not an easy thing to do. Over the years, in dealing with veterans and veterans homelessness, things can happen. For many of us, it's hard to realize what veterans go through. Some of them don't want to deal with us. They don't want to see a politician or a bureaucrat from Veterans Affairs. They do not want to see them at all. In fact, sometimes they tell me, if they go into a shelter, the homeless people go out the back door just so they don't have to talk to them. It's unfortunate, but if you can put programs in place to get them to feel a bit better about themselves, you can basically bring them back into society.

Rachel was with me last night in Toronto. Helmets to Hardhats is a prime example of what can take place when you have groups that work hard to basically help people get back into society. That's in fact what we're trying to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Minister MacAulay.

I would now like to turn the floor over to a member of the committee who accompanied the minister on that trip and who is also the second co‑chair of the committee.

Mr. Desilets, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us, Mr. MacAulay. It is always a pleasure to see you.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to watch you a bit and give you a certain amount of time to answer me, because I have several questions to ask you, Minister.

First, I'd like to thank you very much for replying to the letter written so magnificently by our chair and answering within the very respectable time allowed.

From what I understand, it is never, or only rarely, the same kind of data being compared. There are different analyses. The main reason why we have all gone a bit astray is that sometimes the numbers are for veterans' first applications and sometimes they're for completed applications. So we can see that there are backlogs and we don't really know what they include.

In the upcoming meetings, I'm going to put a lot of emphasis on the first application. The ombudsman told us clearly that the first application was the most important one and was the key element in the process. The figures show that there has been no significant improvement when it comes to the first application.

Minister, can you tell us briefly about the importance of the first application?

The figures we have show that there has been no improvement when it comes to processing applications from francophones as compared to applications from anglophones.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you very much for the question. You've asked it of me before.

First of all, I want to thank you for your participation in Juno Beach and what you did. It all helped so much.

On the question you asked, I can assure you that wait times have decreased for female veterans and francophone veterans, and perhaps the deputy could give the overall breakdown. There is a difference. There is an improvement of about five weeks or so, but I'll let the deputy give you the exact figures.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[Paul Ledwell, Deputy Minister, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Can I say something, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have the floor, Mr. Ledwell.

[Paul Ledwell]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Desilets.

You're correct, that first applications are very important. We make sure those applications are handled rigorously. We know that this is important for veterans.

Year over year, we are seeing an improvement in processing times for all first applications, including applications by francophones and women.

In 2020‑2021, the processing time for first applications made by francophones was approximately 52.3 weeks. For 2021‑2022, that time was approximately 45.2 weeks.

We have figures and we are always read to provide them. We follow up very carefully on these questions.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

Because I'm a visual person, I made myself a graphic using the department's figures. I don't see any improvement for francophones. There are changes when it comes to anglophones, which created a discrepancy, but for francophones, there has been no movement since 2018: processing time is still between 40 and 60 weeks.

I know you're making efforts and a lot of money is being injected into human resources.

How can we do more? We seem to have a common goal, that is, that it concerns first applications.

[Paul Ledwell]

Thank you for the question.

As I said, Mr. Desilets, we put a lot of emphasis on processing applications for services made to the department by veterans for the first time, including by francophones and women. The department is constantly trying to improve the overall process by investing in human resources.

We create graphics that contain the figures, and we send them to you three times a year, to make sure that the committee has up‑to‑date information and that we are talking about the same figures.

I know that's very important to you.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Yes, it is very important to us.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets. You will have a chance to come back to the question later.

I have to give our next colleague the floor.

I'd like to invite MP Rachel Blaney for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Hello, Minister.

Hello, Mr. Ledwell.

It's good to see both of you here today.

I did appreciate seeing you yesterday, Minister, at Helmets to Hardhats, an amazing organization. I was sitting with my friends from the Canadian Labour Congress. I really enjoyed my time with them and really enjoyed hearing from so many veterans who moved from one place to another, and it was such a smooth transition. I was happy to see you and happy, of course, to support the important work they are doing.

My questions for you today are around my bill, Bill C-221, which addresses the issue of marriage after 60. As you know, Minister, this is something I'm very passionate about. You may know that the committee has just started a study. Last week we had some tremendous witnesses before us here.

One of the things that I found very concerning, Minister, is how hurt these veterans and retired RCMP members were by this reality. In one case, we heard a story from someone who married after 60 and did not know that his partner would not receive the pension after his passing. It's a devastating conversation to have to inform your loved one of that reality.

We also heard from a couple who had been married for 17 years. They are both in good health, so I hope to see them married for many more years, Minister.

I want to quote a few things that Walter said. He said:

It's shameful that I have to stand here and talk to people like you about trying to justify my finances after death....

I felt kind of insignificant with this whole thing.

Basically, how I feel is that she has been a good caregiver to not only me but this community. She's well respected, and it's almost like an insult that I would leave this earth and not have anything to leave.

He also mentioned later on that he felt that the government was saying she was not worth it.

I hope, Minister, you agree with me that after 17 years of marriage she is definitely worth having some sort of supports after he is no longer with her.

Could you tell the committee—and I will interrupt you, as you know, Minister, with deep respect—what steps are being taken internally within the department to start to address this issue in a meaningful way? We know there are some funds that are available through the veterans survivors fund.

I would like also to hear if there's any money moving from that to support women—largely women; sometimes it's men— who no longer have their partners with them and have absolutely no survivors benefits after they lose that person they may have been married to. In one case I have heard from somebody who has been married now over 30 years.

Go ahead, Minister.

[Lawrence MacAulay, Liberal, Cardigan, PE]

Thank you, Rachel.

Yes, you will interrupt me. I know you will, and that's okay.

I want to thank you so much, too. I think it's only fair that I take time to thank you. I think you know that we did a good deed together last night and at Juno Beach. I also echo what you had to say about last night. It is touching to see. There are hardships and there are great things. Last night was victory.

I know I have told you before that we have been working with Stats Canada and the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research. We do have that information, and we're analyzing it. I know you understand the total situation. On our part, we will use the results to research how to best support veterans.

I understand that you are going to be dealing with this at the committee. I would also be very interested in what results will come from the committee.