Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 6th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 21 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

I would like to take a moment to welcome our new committee clerk, Audrée Dallaire, who is with us here, together with Myriam Burke, who will be assisting her on this first day.

On behalf of all members of the committee, and on behalf of myself, I would like to thank Cédric Taquet, who has assisted us in our work. He is listening to us today. I want to thank him for his work and his dedication.

I would also like to welcome Angelo Iacono.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee is meeting for a briefing by the Auditor General of Canada on “Report 2: Processing Disability Benefits for Veterans”. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

The Auditor General is a regular visitor at committees, so she is very familiar with how the interpretation services and the equipment we use work.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. Once again, thank you for agreeing to come to the committee at such short notice, despite what you asked us for.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Karen Hogan, the Auditor General of Canada; Martin Dompierre, the Assistant Auditor General; and Isabelle Marsolais, Director.

Ms. Hogan, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on processing disability benefits for veterans, which was tabled in the House of Commons on May 31, 2022.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.

We are very pleased to appear today and to see the committee's interest in our work. We recognize that our relevance is built on the value we bring to parliamentarians and committees such as yours.

The objective of the Veterans Affairs Canada disability benefits program is to compensate veterans for the effects of service-related injuries or illnesses on their lives. Veterans include current and former members of the Canadian Armed Forces and the RCMP.

We looked at whether Veterans Affairs Canada was taking appropriate actions to reduce wait times for veterans to receive the disability benefits they were entitled to in order to support their and their families' well-being.

Delays in receiving benefits may have an impact on access to care or other programs and services administered by the department. In some cases, veterans may feel a lack of respect or appreciation for their service.

Despite the department's initiatives to speed up the processing of applications for disability benefits, veterans were still waiting a long time to receive compensation for injuries sustained in their service to Canada. We found that veterans were waiting almost 10 months for a decision on a first application, which is much longer than the department's service standard.

In addition, francophones, women and RCMP veterans had to wait longer than others. There were various reasons for the delays experienced by members of each of these groups. Of particular note is that RCMP veterans waited 38% longer on average to receive a decision on their applications than Canadian Armed Forces veterans. Part of this could be explained by the fact that the funds paid by the RCMP to Veterans Affairs Canada did not align with the volume of applications that required processing.

In addition, we noted that both the funding and almost half of the employees on the team responsible for processing all applications were temporary. The department also lacked a long-term staffing plan.

In recent years, Veterans Affairs Canada implemented several initiatives to try to make application processing more efficient. However, the department's data on how it processes benefit applications and the organization of this data were poor. As a result, neither our office nor the department were able to measure whether and to what extent each initiative improved efficiency and helped reduce wait times.

Furthermore, the department did not always calculate wait times consistently, which meant that veterans waited longer than the department reported publicly.

Overall, the impact of these shortcomings means that more work is needed to reduce wait times. Our veterans are waiting too long to receive their benefits.

Veterans Affairs Canada and the RCMP agreed with all four of our recommendations.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We'd be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

You kept exactly to the time you were allowed. I hope committee members will do the same.

We will now move on to the question period.

We will start with Mr. Tolmie or Mr. Caputo.

Which one?

Okay. It's Mr. Fraser Tolmie, for six minutes.

Please, go ahead.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Hogan, for your hard work in putting this report together. I know it's not a single effort, and I appreciate all the hard effort and work from your team. Thank you very much for joining us today.

Ms. Hogan, in your report, on page 16, you state the following:

Because of the poor quality and organization of the department’s data, neither we nor the department were able to determine how the initiatives that the department had implemented contributed to the change in wait time[s] for some applications.

Do you stand by that statement?

[Karen Hogan]

Absolutely. I stand by all the statements in our audit reports.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Would you agree that the data you speak of is actually veterans' files concerning health issues? That's what we want to....

[Karen Hogan]

The data we were speaking of here was how the department gathers the files but then how it stores and tracks where they are through the application process, in addition to the information that's contained in them.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Right. The data represents the number of files, which are the number of health concerns that are being brought forward by vets.

[Karen Hogan]

Yes, but I think there's a nuance to be brought. An application might include many different conditions that a veteran is seeking to have benefits paid on. Part of that was the concern about how they even managed, whether it was a condition or in an application. Yes, those are the files that Veterans Affairs has.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Right. Part of the responsibility of this committee is to ensure that these files for vets are being processed within a proper amount of time. I just want to bridge that information that you're referring to as “data” and humanize it as representing people who have concerns. Is that a fair assumption to make?

[Karen Hogan]

Yes, it's a fair assumption that each bit of data is an individual waiting to hear news on a benefit.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I'm just going to be very observant of the chair, because I'm sure he's going to be giving me the red card quite a bit today.

Mr. Chair, concerning this audit, it's not only a concerning report, but also a damning report. It raises further issues and concerns. This is not a reflection on what you've presented, but it compounds a concern that we've been having at this committee over and over again.

At committee, we had the minister here on February 1, 2022. The minister specifically said that the information we received in a report was inaccurate, and that the data was incorrect. If I take what he said back then, and that it's hard to get data and information in this report, there is a consistency and a trend that I don't like. He went on to say that the numbers and projections were going to go down, and that he would provide updated data.

The minister's letter, which was dated in April, and the Auditor General's report in May, one month later, shows that there's a lack of information, and it's a trend I'm very concerned about.

If accurate information and data are not provided to the Auditor General, how can we as a committee do our job? How can problems related to the backlog of veterans files, data and health care concerns be fixed?

If the information is not provided accurately, then the following reports, such as the Auditor General's report, the ombud report, which we received earlier on, the PBO report and the committee's report, which all rely on data.... How can we make an accurate assessment and improve the wait times that veterans are experiencing to get their files processed more quickly?

In the past, when we had the ombud report, there was an attempt to discuss the report and say there was a need to change the information. The auditor is giving us information and saying the data is not accurate.

I'm grateful for your report, because it highlights a concern and a trend that has been going on for quite some time. Thank you very much for your information.

How do you think it would be best for you to get more information, or more accurate information, in the future?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Excuse me, Ms. Hogan, but I'd like to remind Mr. Tolmie to also leave time for the witness to answer. Your time is up, Mr. Tolmie, so please leave enough time to have an answer.

Right now, I'd like to go to Mr. Angelo Iacono for six minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Ms. Hogan.

On the question of wait times, can you tell us about the disparities observed between applications by men and women, and between applications by anglophones and francophones?

[Karen Hogan]

In our audit, we observed that on average, veterans waited 39 weeks before getting a decision on their applications for benefits; women waited 47 weeks and francophones waited 46 weeks. There are different reasons why these two groups waited longer for an answer.

If we look first at francophone applications, the veterans ombudsman identified this disparity in his report. We did an audit to see whether there had been any improvement. There had been an improvement, but francophone veterans were still waiting longer for an answer than other veterans.

A francophone unit has been created to process francophone applications, and this has improved the situation. After that, a bilingual group was also created, and this also improved things. Nonetheless, there are not enough staff who are able to process francophone applications. That is why the wait time is longer.

Wait times for applications by women are attributable to several things. On the application form, there is nowhere to give the woman's name before or after marriage. Women will very probably change their name if they marry or divorce over the course of their career. Because there is nowhere to enter both their names, a search has to be done and that causes delays in the processing.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

What can we do to reduce this disparity?

Have you looked into that question?

[Karen Hogan]

Yes, we have examined that question a little.

Veterans Affairs Canada has already recognized the problem relating to processing women's applications, and I believe the department has amended the form to fix it.

For francophone applications, there simply have to be more employees who can process applications in both official languages.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Can you tell us about the announcement of $140 million to extend the period of employment of Veterans Affairs Canada employees by two years, which was made after the period covered by your audit?

What effect did that have on cases that were delayed?

What more could we do?

In the short term, what should Veterans Affairs Canada focus on?

[Karen Hogan]

The additional investment was made after the period covered by our audit, so I do not know why the department was given that money or what the department did with it.

During our audit, we observed that additional money was sometimes given on an ad hoc basis. We noticed that this money was usually used to make sure that temporary workers continued to work on processing applications. However, some of those employees have quit their jobs at Veterans Affairs Canada to look for a permanent job.

It takes time to integrate a new employee into the department. The employee has to be trained so they can process applications properly. When employees leave the department because their position is not permanent, temporary funding is not going to help improve things. That is why we recommended that funding be a bit more stable and that a long-term view be taken. Processing the backlog of applications must not be the only focus.

If it is okay with you, Mr. Dompierre would like to add something.

[Martin Dompierre, Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

I can give you an example.

At paragraph 2.56 of the report, it says that the department lost 43 employees between November 2020 and September 2021, and this had an impact on processing of applications.

The department estimated that approximately 5,000 applications were not processed during that period because of those employees' departures. Offering permanent positions ensures continuity in processing of applications. That has been demonstrated.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

How did Veterans Affairs Canada respond to each of your recommendations and what is your opinion of the department's response?

[Karen Hogan]

The department's representatives accepted all our recommendations and committed themselves to improving the situation.

On the question of funding, they said they were working with the central agencies to see whether there might be a solution that would be more permanent than temporary.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Your six minutes are up.

Thank you, Mr. Iacono and Ms. Hogan.

I will now give Mr. Desilets the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, colleagues.

Thank you for being with us, Ms. Hogan.

Personally, I devoured your report. It is interesting, and it confirms some aspects of the situation. I note, primarily, that the disparity between women and men has decreased. We are on the right track and the situation is progressing well. It is no longer the problem we had before.

However, and you are not responsible for this situation, your report dates from June 30, so the figures date from June 30. The quarterly reports we have show there are still fluctuations.

The disparity between women and men is not really a concern any longer. The size of the backlog has also decreased to an acceptable extent. I think efforts have been made in that regard. On the other hand, because I am in Quebec and I am francophone, I find the way francophones are treated very disturbing. We are talking about wait times of 42.8 weeks for francophones but 29 weeks for anglophones, and that is absolutely and totally unacceptable.

It is not your fault. It is a finding that has been made once again. The ombudsman has already dealt with it and reported it. I have raised it on numerous occasions. This committee has spoken to the fact that the disparity between francophones and anglophones was unacceptable.

As well, you again note that this disparity is significant. Hearing that the department's response to your recommendations is positive does not stop me from being seriously concerned, because we have seen recommendations like that being made for six years. Those recommendations say that this or that must not be done, that one aspect or another has to be improved, people have to be hired, and so on. For six years, the department's response to these recommendations has always been positive, but no reduction of the disparity between francophones and anglophones has materialized.

I conclude from this that there is a systemic problem in this case. Yes, a group of people have been hired in Montreal. I may have questions to ask you a bit later. Nonetheless, I conclude that there is a systemic problem, a structural problem, which means they have not managed to eliminate this disparity.

I have been on the committee for only three years, or a bit more than two years. In view of the information you are giving us, would you be prepared to consider a supplementary audit at Veterans Affairs Canada? This time it would relate specifically to applications made by francophones.