Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 6th, 2022

[Karen Hogan]

Absolutely. Every audit has to end at some point. That's where we ended it.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Yes. I'm not pointing it out as a weakness at all. I understand.

Any investments that were made, any hiring that was done, any changes in practice, any reduction in the backlog over the last year were not the subject of your audit.

[Karen Hogan]

No, they were not. My audit period ended September 30, 2021.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

All right.

On page 6, you indicate that the service standard “had not been met for 7 years”. If we go back seven years from the September 2021 end of the audit period, can I then conclude that the last time the service standard was met was in fiscal 2014?

[Karen Hogan]

I would say that's probably accurate. We gather evidence all the way until January 31, 2022, so it's give or take a few months; I don't know the exact date it would go back to in terms of hitting the seven-year point.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Okay.

I heard you say earlier that one of the keys to improving the performance at the department would be more full-time people. Is that right?

[Karen Hogan]

I believe that a stable, permanent workforce would help improve the processing of applications, yes.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Would the converse also be true? If there was a decision made to downsize, to fire, to let go, to lay off permanent, full-time people, would that have a negative impact on meeting the service standard?

[Karen Hogan]

Well, I would only be presuming now, but if you terminate the employment of permanent employees who are training and onboarding your temporary employees, it's likely to have a really huge impact on processing times, yes.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I don't think you need to presume it. History has told us that. Something called the “deficit reduction action plan” resulted in a dramatic downsizing of the civil service, including Veterans Affairs. That downsizing was actually greater in the Atlantic region, where many of these claims are processed. We see the results starting in 2015, starting when the impact of those severe cuts began.

Let me take you to page 7 and to the point that Ms. Wagantall made. At page 7, when you made a comparison to 2014, which is right around the time that the deficit reduction action plan was landing at Veterans Affairs, 2,160 decisions were within the 16-week period for mental health. If I read it correctly, you indicate that in 2021, 3,802 decisions were within the service standard.

Despite the drastic cuts that were made at that time, there was an increase of 76% from 2014 in the number of mental health claims being dealt with within the service standards. It went from 2,160 to 3,802. Is that right?

[Karen Hogan]

That's correct. The first mention is our previous audit, and then there is an increase in the demand and an increase in the processing, absolutely—with still a large portion not meeting the service standard, however.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Yes. A massive number of files, a lot more files, are being processed within the service standard. There are a lot more files being processed in total. The increase there is more than double—221%, by my calculation.

[Karen Hogan]

Yes. These are just the mental health files.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Casey, and thank you, Ms. Hogan.

The next two members will have two and a half minutes of speaking time each.

We will start with Luc Desilets.

The floor is yours, Mr. Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Casey, you are an exceptional politician. I say that sincerely. I hope to have your skill one day. You said something that particularly struck me.

Despite all these figures, all these tables, all these reports saying the same thing, we have failed to achieve the targets for seven years.

I have a little memory that has come into my mind, going back two weeks. I went to a veteran's funeral. I spoke with his wife, who was heartbroken. I just wanted to say that. We have the figures. We are going to have more figures. I am an eternal optimist, but there is something that is not working in this system.

If we are not capable of achieving these targets after seven years, targets that are not as extraordinary as all that, it is because something is not right.

To come back to that woman, she told me that her late husband no had longer believed in the system, because he felt rejected by his employers, by the Government of Canada, by the Department of Veterans Affairs. It need not be said that he committed suicide. I do not want to get dramatic, but what you said has galvanized me, Mr. Casey. I just wanted to let you know that.

Ms. Hogan, given that not much time is left, would you have a recommendation to make to the committee? I know you have already made a lot in the report, which is excellent. I want to thank you again.

However, would you have a recommendation we could apply, that might help us achieve our objectives?

[Karen Hogan]

I would just like to say that I am saddened and frustrated by the results.

We did observe some improvement. The number of applications processed has risen. However, I always come back to the fact that the wait time is unacceptable. It is far from what is set out in the service standard.

The government therefore needs to change its approach and improve how applications are processed. That is really an unkept promise to veterans.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Hogan.

I have finished, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Ms. Blaney, the floor is now yours for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair. That was a really great intervention. I was really moved by it. I just wanted to say that. I will also say that the interpreter was phenomenal in interpreting the passion. They did a very good job in English for you, Luc.

One of the questions I have is around the RCMP applicants. I appreciated the information you gave, but I noticed that for the RCMP applications, the medical information was that it was 85 days in the 2020–21 fiscal year and 35 days the following year. For the Canadian Armed Forces, it was 67 days and then down to 23 days in those two years. I'm wondering if that directly related to the fact that we were experiencing a pandemic, or if there was any explanation for those significant changes.

[Karen Hogan]

I believe we heard that some of the information was that it was due to the pandemic, but the rest could be due to delays in obtaining the files or how many conditions they're trying to gather information about. There were many factors that could have contributed to the delay, but the pandemic was absolutely one of them.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

We also heard that, overall, RCMP veterans are having to wait significantly longer than the rest of the veterans. It sounds as though there's a desire to see a better contract, maybe to have enough staff to support them. I'm wondering if you know what the difference is. Where is that? What I hear again and again is that identifying those bottlenecks is almost impossible. I'm wondering about that.

[Karen Hogan]

You're right that we found that RCMP veterans waited about 38% longer than Canadian Armed Forces veterans did. We think one of the reasons was some of the funding, but again it's really difficult to nail down exactly why there are so many bottlenecks. The information's not there to tell us if it sits somewhere longer or it gets blocked in a different spot. We were left to conclude that this could be one of the reasons that RCMP veterans are waiting longer.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I just keep thinking about the impact of the bottlenecks here and the impact they have on other areas. I think of the Veterans Review and Appeal Board.

I'm just wondering if you have any reflection on where it gets stuck here. How about those other places veterans go to get help? That must delay them in being able to access those resources as well.

[Karen Hogan]

The majority of our statistics relate to the first-time application, but yes, there's more time if you ask for a reassessment or if you try to challenge the decision. We didn't go that far, but I know that the veterans ombudsman went there in its report.