Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 24th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Your two and a half minutes are up.

I invite Rachel Blaney to speak for two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

I want to come back to just a short summary.

Right now, when a call is made to VAC through the call centre, it's recorded. We heard from the department that when it's a call out, it doesn't get recorded; if it's a direct call to a service agent, it's not recorded.

I appreciate that what we heard is either that it should be recorded or that there should be some sort of accountability given to the veteran, whether or not the conversation is recorded. I think we heard clearly from the department that neither is done, and I want to thank everybody for clarifying that point.

The point that I would like to come back to—and I'm going to start with you, Mr. Meincke—is around the idea of sanctuary trauma. With regard to veterans who are reaching out, I appreciate the multiple levels of testimony that talk about how hard it it is to take that step. I think it is for anyone, but for a person who has served, who has committed to be a protector, it is even harder to take that step.

I'm wondering about the impact of going somewhere where you're hopeful you'll get help and then someone not being there for you in the way you need it. What does that mean in terms sanctuary trauma? What do workers need to know about that, so we don't see anything like this ever happening again?

[Mark Meincke]

Last year, after years of struggling horribly with suicidal thoughts I didn't want in my head—I call them “intrusive thoughts”—and trying to beat them away, I felt as if I was getting closer and closer to a cliff. I talked to the therapist provided by VAC, and her solution was, “Just hide the knife you would use. If you haven't done it yet, you probably won't.” That would be an example of sanctuary trauma.

Two months after that happened, in July 2022, I attempted suicide. I saw it coming. I said, “I see it coming. I need some help.” I have never been back to that clinic. I called that clinic and asked to speak to a manager or something, in order to tell them about this experience, because this shouldn't happen to people. There was no exit interview, concern or follow-up. I was on my own. Thank God I have resources because of my show, but that's sanctuary trauma.

The breach of trust that creates.... I will never go back to that clinic, and that was after years of being there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Meincke.

Now, let's go to Mrs. Cathay Wagantall for five minutes.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here, and for being as brave as you are, today, sharing this truth from your hearts.

Mr. Meincke, I want to mention that I was horrified when MAID was first brought in. The first place my mind and heart went to was our veterans and the potential danger involved in this.

It amazes me to hear you all say, today, that you would serve again and encourage those you love to serve, in spite of having been in theatres where you and your comrades faced death and peril, and where you participated in and witnessed incredible violence. Many have faced abuse from those who they thought would be their mentors and have their backs. You're facing challenges with your relationships and all of these things, while trying to fit into a civilian world, and yet you would still encourage them.

The one point I'm hearing is.... The whole issue that breaks the camel's back is sanctuary trauma.

In a quick, five-minute speech I got to do in a take-note debate on mental wellness, I spoke to this and said that sanctuary trauma is what happens to the spirit and mind of a veteran when they experience the failure of their government to fulfill its promise to take care of them and their families.

Would you agree with that picture? Am I painting it right?

[Mark Meincke]

It sounds to me like a good way to paint it.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I would like to ask you and Mr. Thorne, as well.... Ms. Hughes spoke about the strict protocols that exist around MAID. My colleague spoke last week, when I wasn't able to be here. He asked if this was referred to law enforcement, because it is punishable, up to 14 years behind bars, for someone to do something they should not do in regard to this. However, on this issue, I'm seeing strict protocols truly being stripped away by the government, more and more.

Do you feel this case is proof, again, that...? I'm sorry, but this is out of control.

[Mark Meincke]

There are no strict protocols.

I had Nicole Scheidl on my show. I'm shocked that she's not one of the witnesses here. She's the executive director of Physicians for Life.

On September 24 of this year, a 21-year-old man completed MAID. His issue was...he had one eye and depression. He's dead. He died on the 24th through MAID, because he had one eye and depression. I thought mental health issues weren't going to be part of the conversation until March of next year, but he's dead, so it doesn't seem to me as if there's a big barrier to entry.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you.

Mr. Thorne, with the wonderful work you do, as well.... We know the number of assisted suicides in Canada rose to 10,000 this year. In your work, do you hear concern about, and are you aware of, these circumstances taking place within our veteran community? How is it impacting your work?

[Oliver Thorne]

Until this testimony today and the news story that came out in August, medical assistance in dying was not on my radar as a significant issue for the veterans we are serving. I think this has been a serious wake-up call.

Suicide has been on our minds for the 10 years that we've been operating and for the almost 25 years that our program has been around. Again, it is the worst possible outcome, and our entire reason for existing is to try to stop that outcome, so suicide has always been on our minds. The possibility of suicide through medical assistance in dying for a mental health disorder—again, that we know to be treatable and when we know that people can improve—is worrying. Absolutely.

I'm not qualified to speak about MAID holistically, but with our focus and the work that we do with veterans, we know that they can get better. We've heard from many veterans who don't believe that they can get better, and then they do. They make progress and their quality of life improves.

My fear is that we are offering a vehicle for people to end their lives when there are treatment options available, but those treatment options are more difficult to access than medically assisted death.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Thorne.

In my last 20 seconds, I have one question for Ms. Hughes.

For your service managers working with the My VAC Account.... From what I understand, there is no tracking within VAC or the Legion of who is seeing what and when, as far as going back goes and being able to determine who was reviewing a particular veteran's account. Do you have a system in place to be able to do that?

[Carolyn Hughes]

We do. It's through Veterans Affairs. They can contact me at any time with a list of people and why we contacted them and for what reason. We can also see client notes, so if one of the service officers called Veterans Affairs, we would see the notes in there. There would be no recording that we would see, though.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

I'd like to invite Mrs. Rechie Valdez for her five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I want to thank the witnesses for joining us, particularly Mr. Meincke.

I appreciate your bravery. Thank you. After all that you've gone through, you continue to support....

I apologize. Trauma is not easy for those of us who have gone through it, so I want to commend you for your bravery today.

Colonel Conrad, I also appreciate your contributions, and I'm sending you my condolences for your loss.

Colonel Conrad, in your opening, you recommended cultural awareness training to make the VAC team aware of the sensitive nature. I think you even said “wounds to the mind”. Continuing Mr. Casey's questions, can you elaborate on any additional advice for training for VAC?

[Col (Ret'd) John D. Conrad]

I spoke about money and budgets earlier, and I almost regret doing so. It becomes so cliché. What I would encourage VAC to do is be more interested in the leadership function of their own department, be more interested in their own people and in developing them and supporting them.

I am sorry if the words sound harsh, but I've often felt when I'm talking with someone on the phone, trying to get help and trying to navigate this long process—the delay, delay, delay—that it is a function, but it is not the fault of the front line. I've always felt that there's a real absence of executive leadership in this department. That might be unfair, because.... I'm in Alberta. I'm not tweeting about this every day. I'm trying to pick up a first down and keep my life moving forward.

Thank you for your question. I think I would encourage the senior executive level of the department to be more interested in leading their people. It's such an earthy ministry and such a focused one.

I'll leave it there. Thank you.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

You also mentioned professional services and investing money. What would it do, in your opinion, if the right money was invested in that?

[Col (Ret'd) John D. Conrad]

I've often felt, when I'm talking to VAC trying to represent myself and soldiers, that you are really talking about a foreign country in terms of the constituency you represent. I feel that there are courseware and educational opportunities that would communicate what this regiment of Canadians—some of our best heart's blood—is really like.

This incident we're talking about today is really reprehensible and concerning. You can sense, in the wider community that I've dealt with at VAC on the phone, that there's an essential goodness and a willingness to help. There is such a gap between the world that these men and women know, such as soldiers, sailors, airmen and airwomen, and what a caseworker knows. If we could just bridge that....

When you get to know us, it's easier to support us. It's easier to imagine how hard it is for some of our servicemen and women who serve in other roles to have that jacket and tie on, or how hard it is just trying to make it through the day without a drink or without harming themselves.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

I'll now connect us with Mr. Thorne.

For the services that you provide with the Veterans Transition Network, you noted that the network supports trauma through reliving it. Can you describe how that helps with the healing process for veterans?

[Oliver Thorne]

Yes, absolutely.

One of the recognized standards for treating trauma is prolonged exposure therapy.

Our program is what you might call talk therapy. We have a group of veterans who are together with specially trained psychologists and returning program graduates—what we call paraprofessionals. These are veterans who have been through the program themselves. They return to act as the bridge between the veterans and the psychologists running the program. To Mr. Conrad's point, that helps us to be culturally informed and competent in working with veterans.

Our approach to trauma is, in a very titrated and controlled way, revisiting challenging moments in people's military service or, indeed, any point in their life that has affected their day-to-day functioning. We're able to revisit—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Thorne. The time is up.

We have enough time for a last round of questions.

I'm going to start with MP Fraser Tolmie for five minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to recognize the service of those who are participating today.

I've been sitting here for quite a while just absorbing this. I came in with some questions and I'm just throwing them out. I'm going to ask questions that I feel I should be asking after hearing some of the testimony.

I would ask this question of the room: What is the mandate of Veterans Affairs?

The mandate of every organization that we've had speak to us—the Legion, Veterans Affairs and Mr. Thorne's organization—is to help those in need, to make them feel valued and to make them feel supported. We're having a conversation right now that completely throws that out the window.

I would ask myself what would happen if a young student went in to talk to a student counsellor in school. What if they said that they were having a hard time and having issues, and they were given the same answer as the person we're talking about was given, which is that there is a way to end their life.

I'm really struggling with where we're going right now in society and the message that is coming out of Veterans Affairs.

Mr. Meincke, based on your knowledge, was a physician ever included in the conversation with the individual who went through with MAID?

[Mark Meincke]

No.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

You run a podcast. What is the mission of your podcast?

[Mark Meincke]

Well, I actually have one. The mission is “to save lives and relieve pain by making help for PTS Injuries easily accessible, with a vision of a world where the path to recovery is clear.”

That should be the same mission and vision that VAC has, but if it is, they're missing it.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay.

Would it be fair to say that this person, this gentleman, from whom you have the transcripts and who reached out to you, was looking for help?