Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 12th, 2022

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I'd like a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I will ask the clerk to proceed with the recorded division.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We are now back on debate of the amended motion. The first two paragraphs would be kept, and the last two would be removed.

Seeing no further comments, I'll call for the vote on the motion as amended.

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

The motion as amended having been adopted, we will proceed accordingly.

Do the committee members wish to discuss something else or move any other motions?

Go ahead, Mr. Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

As I mentioned earlier, Mr. Chair, I have a motion to put forward. It reads as follows:

That the Chair of the committee write a letter to the Veterans Ombud to suggest that she review the allegations that medical assistance in dying was offered to veterans by Veterans Affairs Canada employees.

The ombud has the authority to review certain situations. It doesn't mean that she will agree to review the allegations, but this would be a very objective way to determine whether the allegations were founded.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets. I hope everyone received your motion by email.

The motion is now up for debate.

Mrs. Wagantall, go ahead.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If I recall the minister's testimony, I believe he indicated that in addition to Veterans Affairs, the ombudsman was also engaged in this process. Is that already happening or not, already directed by...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We don't have any information concerning that.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Mr. Chair, I don't want to speak for the minister, but my recollection is that he said he would invite her, if she chose.... He had no problem with her getting involved in the file.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

That's her job.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Yes, that's her job. There's no objection.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I will now call the vote on Mr. Desilets's motion.

(Motion agreed to)

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Since the beginning, we have been wondering whether any other serious complaints were filed. If the ombud received complaints, we don't know about them. This motion may help us find out whether the ombud received complaints that are possibly different from the ones we know about.

That's all. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Since we are on committee business, I would like to ask the committee members whether, this Thursday, we have—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Before you do that, Mr. Chair, I have a motion that I want to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have a motion? Please, go ahead, Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I apologize. I can't recall if this was already on notice and if members have it or not, but if not, we can make sure it's sent and distributed here.

I move:

That Veterans Affairs Canada provide the committee with the training materials and training modules that were distributed to Veterans Affairs employees to clarify the department’s policy on discussing medical assistance in dying (MAiD).

Simply, it had been indicated to us that there was going to be training provided to all Veterans Affairs employees to clarify the department's policy. Obviously, it would be helpful for the committee to know what that training consisted of.

If we are going to make suggestions or recommendations following our study, it would be helpful for us to know what types of materials or training modules were provided to Veterans Affairs employees, to determine whether they were adequate to ensure what I think we all want to ensure, which is that no veteran ever has this kind of a suggestion made to them again. If we're going to do that, we need to be able to assess them. That's the rationale for asking for the materials.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Richards, and I think that motion was on notice, so we can discuss it and adopt it or not. It's up to the committee.

Is there any intervention on that motion from Mr. Blake Richards?

Seeing no further comments, I will call the vote on Mr. Richards' motion.

(Motion agreed to)

Now that the motion has been adopted, we are back on committee business.

I was going to say that we were supposed to have witnesses today, but those requests were still on hold because they related to Mr. Casey's employability study. I would like to know whether the committee wants the clerk to follow up on those requests, so the committee can meet with two or three witnesses at our meeting Thursday afternoon.

Go ahead, Mr. Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Since we don't know exactly how things are going to go this week, I want to make sure we don't invite the witnesses only to cancel on them at the last minute.

For six of the past seven years, the House has risen by the end of Oral Questions on Thursday. I can't speak for our government in this particular case, but I wouldn't want to invite witnesses knowing there was a strong likelihood that the House could rise on Thursday, with members going back to their ridings to do that essential work.

That's just my view. I'm throwing it out there for discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

I would add that the witnesses have been waiting to meet with us for a number of meetings now, and we've been pushing back their appearances. I think it would be a good idea to discuss the matter.

The floor is yours, Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I can appreciate what Mr. Samson is saying. I certainly can, because I know there is a possibility that will be the case, but I also think it's incumbent upon us. We have very important work to do here on behalf of veterans, and there are a lot of issues that we as a committee need to deal with. If the House is still sitting, I think we should be prepared to meet. Let's not ignore the reality that there's a good chance that this meeting might not happen, if the House has risen, but I think we should also be prepared to work if the House is still sitting.

Perhaps what we could do is sort of blend this together a little—indicate to the witnesses and just be clear with them, “We would like to schedule you for this meeting, but we are going to be right up front with you that we may have to reschedule you for after Christmas,” so they know and so they're not surprised when, at the last minute, we have to tell them we can't have a meeting. However, we should be prepared to have one if the House is still sitting. Maybe we should schedule some witnesses but give them a clear understanding that it may be cancelled, because the House may rise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Richards.

Before I go to Ms. Blaney, I would like to ask the clerk if she has been in contact with them since three weeks ago.

Can you give us an update on that, please?

[The Clerk]

The witnesses were scheduled first for early December. We had motions that meant we needed to hold meetings on other topics. The witnesses are available for this Thursday, but please note that this is the third time we're moving them, in a sense. I called them to see if they were available for Thursday. Some of them said no, and one I'm waiting for. That's where we are right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Well, I have to say I don't want to waste these people's time. I just think it's disrespectful to ask them that many times and then say, “Well, we might see you, but we might not.”

I would say there's a lot for us to do. I certainly won't be sitting on my laurels during those times. There are a lot of other things I have to get done, but I don't want to disrespect witnesses, so I think today should probably be our last visit until the new year.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Go ahead, Mr. Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I agree. I'd like to ask the clerk or analyst whether there's anything else we can plan for Thursday, so we don't end up losing a meeting.