Evidence of meeting #33 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was employment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
I'd like to ask Mr. Harris for one minute, if he could, to reply to that, please, about the date.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs
Mr. Chair, we worked with the committee and with the clerk to provide the information that was required. If there's different information required and that request is put in, we'll work to provide the information. We're always interested in helping to support the committee.
Mr. Chair, to you and the committee members, if there are different requests or if it's to be interpreted differently, please communicate that back to us.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you.
I will sit down with Mr. Richards and see what the difference is. The clerk will call you or send you a letter about that.
As you know, we have another panel, so I'd like to thank the witnesses who were here with us.
I would like to start by thanking the representatives from the Department of Veterans Affairs: Mr. Steven Harris, assistant deputy minister of the service delivery branch; Ms. Jane Hicks, acting director general of service delivery and program management; retired lieutenant‑colonel Chris Hutt, CD, director of transition and program support of the service delivery branch, whom I would also like to thank for his service within the Canadian Armed Forces; and Mr. Nathan Svenson, director of research.
On behalf of the committee members, I would like to express our thanks for testifying.
We will take a few minutes' break in order to bring in the next group of witnesses.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
We will now proceed to the second panel of witnesses.
This is a quick reminder to all witnesses that, before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you're on video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself.
I would like to welcome our witnesses.
As an individual, we have Ms. Mary Beth MacLean, a Ph.D. candidate at Queen's University, by video conference.
We welcome Mr. Serge Blais, executive director of the Professional Development Institute of the University of Ottawa.
I'd like to begin with Ms. MacLean.
You have the floor for five minutes for your opening remarks. Please, go ahead.
Mary Beth MacLean PhD Candidate, Queen's University, As an Individual
Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to you about this important topic.
I will be speaking to you today about findings on veteran employment from research I led during my time as a researcher with Veterans Affairs Canada. This research uses data from the life after service studies, or LASS, as well as findings from research conducted by NATO on military to civilian transition.
Employment has been found to be important to the health, well-being and adjustment from military to civilian life for veterans. Fortunately, most veterans are employed after release and are satisfied with their work. Both employment and satisfaction rates grow over time.
Also, while the unemployment rate—that is those actually looking for work—does not differ from that of the general Canadian population, veterans are less likely to be employed and more likely to experience activity limitations at work.
There is also variation in outcomes across diverse groups of the population. This was alluded to in some of your questioning earlier. Those looking for work are more likely than the employed veterans to be younger at release, to have fewer years of service and to have served in the army. Those not in the labour force are more likely to be older and to have had more years of service. They may experience barriers to work, such as ageism and disability.
Satisfaction with civilian employment also varies considerably by military rank, with officers being the most satisfied and privates and cadets being the least satisfied.
The lowest labour market earnings are among those who served in the combat arms. Employment rates are lower among female veterans and among medically released veterans.
There are also gender differences in earnings. Female veterans earn about 58% of what their male counterparts earn. This is not a function of the types of industries women work in, as females earn less than their male counterparts in all industries except for mining.
Changing employers is common among veterans. More than half of veterans changed employers during the first three years post-release. About one in 10 veterans report that their main activity is “disabled” or being on disability in the first year after release. This figure doesn't change over time.
While income and access to benefits and compensation are important for the health and financial security of veterans and their families, having a purpose in work and life provides a sense of identity and social integration that is essential for a successful transition to civilian life. Research suggests that people experiencing disability should be encouraged and supported to remain in or re-enter the workforce as soon as possible. In this regard, a program such as individual placement and support has been found to be more effective than traditional rehabilitation in improving employment rates and earnings among veterans with PTSD and spinal cord injuries.
In a systematic review conducted in Canada of work reintegration among veterans with mental disorders, individual placement and support was highlighted as a promising intervention. Many nations recognize the importance of employment assistance and most have programs available to both transitioning and former members. A few, such as the U.K., have formally evaluated their programs.
What does all this tell us?
First, supports need to account for the different types of employment outcomes experienced by various subject groups of the population.
Second, supports also need to recognize the dynamic nature of the labour market, which necessitates not just supports in the transition to civilian life, but also ongoing supports in maintaining employment and finding more suitable employment.
Third, for those experiencing disability, we need to ensure that evidence-based interventions are in place and are reaching those in need.
This includes work accommodations, multidisciplinary health care and case management, and individuals' placement and support, which combines these elements, plus a set of principles that focus on ability rather than disability.
Finally, we can learn from the successes and failures of other nations.
Thank you for your attention.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you so much, Ms. MacLean.
I would like to welcome Mr. Serge Blais.
Mr. Blais, you have five minutes to make your opening statement.
Serge Blais Executive Director, Professional Development Institute, University of Ottawa
Hello.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank Mr. Richards and Mr. Desilets for inviting me here.
I do want to emphasize that Mr. Jeff Musson should have been here today. I know he's watching. Hi, Jeff. He encountered severe medical issues on the weekend, not life-threatening but his doctor wisely told him not to come, so I'm going to try to do as best a job as I can.
I'm the director of the professional development institute at the University of Ottawa. PDI, as we call it, serves the upskilling, re-skilling and learning needs of about 10,000 people every year. These are people who are beyond the baccalaureate and master's degree programs, so basically professionals. Of the 10,000, a good maybe two-thirds if not three-quarters are from the federal public sector. We like to think that we work at the intersection of academia, government and industry.
The coding for veterans program that I'm describing today is part of that institute, and I will add is probably my pet project.
Coding for veterans helps fill the cyber skill gaps in Canada's tech workforce. We observe that members who have released from the CAF have the skills, the temperament and the aptitudes to perform successfully in cybersecurity. We say that we go from the battlefield to the cyber field, or from deployment to employment, if you will. We have a 90% success rate with all the veterans who take this program, and I'll describe that a bit later.
There are three basic streams. Without going too technical about it, one is on secure software development. Another is network security associate, and then another one is the cybersecurity architect program. Each stream represents about 650 hours to complete, so it is not for the faint of heart. It requires a lot of engagement and commitment. Typically, people will do it over eight months, which essentially adds up to 20 hours or so a week for a duration of eight months.
Completion of one of the streams leads to a certificate of professional development from the University of Ottawa and, very importantly, also prepares graduates to write industry-recognized certificates. That's hugely important for industry, especially in this field. They won't let just anyone come in through the service and stuff like that. They need to show that you have the credentials, and this program prepares them to get those credentials: the CISSP, CCNA and a whole bunch of acronyms like those.
The program is offered 100% online and is self-paced but with tutorial support. We don't let people fend for themselves. They are self-paced, but they have access to real-time tutors. The program, of course, is available across Canada.
The program is offered in both official languages. Currently, 50% of our courses are offered in French, but our goal is to offer 100% of our courses in both French and English by the end of this year, as per the University of Ottawa's mandate. We are mandated to offer all of our programs in both languages, apart from a few exceptions. We have made presentations in Quebec and New Brunswick. For example, we went to Valcartier and Bagotville. On October 26, we went to the Aéro Montréal symposium in Mirabel to promote our program.
We do a pre-evaluation. It's important to ensure that people who come in are not set up for failure.
We want to make sure that there is a minimum skills set. Even if we don't expect to welcome students who already have some knowledge of computer science, they still need to have certain basic skills. The preselection process includes an interview, because we are looking for people who have the necessary cognitive skills and temperament for the program. As I stated earlier, we have a 90% success rate, which is the envy of many deans at the university. This success rate is far higher than that of many programs at the university.
We work closely with key actors within the industry, such as Cisco, Amazon, LinkedIn and CompTIA to offer the program. We do this because firstly, we want to give our students experience that is real and practical. Secondly, working with the industry increases employability. Often, participants in the program are offered a job before even having finished their studies.
We are also adding a mandatory course in organizational behaviour.
Everybody has to go through an organizational behaviour course in addition to the technical training.
In this way, we seek to cover the cultural aspects of the IT world, and cybersecurity in particular.
We also wish to ensure that each participant acquires the necessary skills to be employable.
It's important for our graduates to understand how to prepare a CV and how to develop an online profile, and this is what we do through that course.
The average age of our participants is 39 years, which is not very old. That means that they still have many years of service ahead of them: 80% of our participants are men and 20% are women, which is more or less the ratio that exists within the military, I am told.
How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Unfortunately, your time has run out, but you will be able to answer questions from committee members.
I would also like to remind committee members that at the end of the meeting, we will have to approve the budget for our study. That means that we will only have one six‑minute round of questioning. Committee members may share their allotted time so that we can wrap up on time.
I'd like to start with Mr. Fraser Tolmie for six minutes, please.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
Thank you very much.
I'd like to thank our visitors for their presentations. The first questions I have are discovery questions.
Ms. MacLean, when you were discussing vets who have gotten out of the military, you talked about officers and you broke it down. You said cadets, and then you got into the army. Could you give me a bit of insight into that?
I have a perception that officers, say a pilot, gets out and goes to work for Air Canada or WestJet, or continues in a career in aviation. They have a skilled trade. An officer who may be an administrative officer goes into a business and is able to transfer his or her skills, but when you get to the army....
I don't want to give you the answer, but I'm looking for what your insight is on that.
PhD Candidate, Queen's University, As an Individual
Officers, as I mentioned, are much more likely to be satisfied with their jobs, and it may be related—actually, it is related—to their use of their skills. That is an important factor contributing to satisfaction with civilian employment. In terms of the army, combat arms in particular is the least transferrable in terms of skills. Those who leave at a fairly low rank, especially, are the least satisfied with their civilian employment.
The span is quite large. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think it was over 90% of all officers are satisfied with their jobs, but it was less than half for those who left as privates or cadets.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
If we were looking at any recommendations for future employment, would you agree that those who have served in army combat roles may need more training and more education—not because they need education but education in a career that they might need to go into?
Is that something with which you would agree?
PhD Candidate, Queen's University, As an Individual
Yes, for sure.
Whether veterans feel that they are using the skills they acquired in the military in the civilian world is important to their satisfaction, but it's not necessarily related to the occupation. For instance, women are much more likely to be in a transferable occupation with administrative types of tasks or in health care, which are directly transferable to a national occupation, let's say, but they are much less likely than men to agree that their skills are being used.
There is something there that is not directly connected to the military occupation.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
Do you think this is something that we should have been aware of beforehand? We've done report after report, so I'm sure you've read some of our reports and some of the recommendations that should have been implemented.
Do you not think that this is something that we should have been made aware of and that we should have already been acting on?
PhD Candidate, Queen's University, As an Individual
Yes, I would say it would be something. All of what I spoke to today is published information in peer-reviewed literature or, for instance, the NATO work was a peer-reviewed, published, edited book.
It would be great if all programs and services were based on the evidence. I'm sure, because I conducted most of this research before I retired from Veterans Affairs, they do have access to this information, and I'm sure it will be part of the strategy.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
Thank you.
As someone who has sat on this committee for a year, it becomes disappointing that we seem to be failing vets, not only in careers—future careers and future employment—but also in delivering services for their care afterwards. Having over four reports in service, we have three or four now in what we can be delivering in careers and it seems to be there's an obvious answer but a lack of action. After eight years, it gets very disappointing for the people of Canada to be dealing with this.
How much more time do I have?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
It's over, exactly. You're right on time. Thank you, Mr. Tolmie.
Now let's go to Mr. Sean Casey for six minutes, please.
Sean.
January 30th, 2023 / 5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to come back and maybe breathe a little optimism into the meeting after that last fairly sombre closing remark.
Ms. MacLean, you were involved in the life after service studies. I think you indicated that from the outset. The life after service studies indicated that the post-release income among veterans in those studies reached the pre-release income three years after and continued to rise for the next 10 years. Is that right?
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
For those who were in the Veterans Affairs Canada rehabilitation program three-quarters of the participants had their pre-release earnings recovered. Is that right?
PhD Candidate, Queen's University, As an Individual
I believe so, yes, if my memory serves me. That is a paper I wrote.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Okay, thank you.
I want to come to Mr. Blais for a minute and get him into the discussion here.
In the coding for vets program, you said that there are three streams. One is software development, the other is network, and the other is cybersecurity architecture. Is that right? In terms of the employment possibilities within each of the streams, you mentioned some big players like Cisco and LinkedIn. The question that I have is this. The work that Ms. MacLean did indicated that 34% of veterans who transition after service end up in the public service. You highlighted those who go from your program into the private sector. It seemed that you also indicated that the vast majority come from the public service.
I'm interested specifically in the veterans. Does the training that's provided under any of the three streams lend itself to public service? Could that be part of the explanation why the percentage is so high?
Executive Director, Professional Development Institute, University of Ottawa
Yes, I don't have the exact number. We have 400 people in the program right now. We graduated a few, some are still ongoing. They get hired through a variety of sectors: consulting firms, banks, the federal government itself, KPMG defence contractors. I don't have the exact numbers at hand, but they are deployed in quite a variety of sectors.
When I said that two-thirds of the people come to us from the federal government, it's not specific to the coding for veterans program. It's the institute overall.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Within Veterans Affairs, we heard the officials earlier talk about the employment and training benefit and the fact that 2,200 veterans a year avail themselves of that benefit. I also read in your materials that the tuition for the coding for veterans program is 100% covered by the federal government.
Executive Director, Professional Development Institute, University of Ottawa
Yes, it is.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Is that the sort of thing that comes from the employment training benefit?