Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[Jean-Luc Meunier]

I tried, but we didn't get a lot of traction, actually. It was like a separate world between us. They feel that maybe we cannot understand their needs, but we do.

For me, it's removing the risks for the veterans to get more hirings. At the end of the day, we are competing in the same market. It's a question of trying to be sure that we address the market in the right way, and today the industry doesn't feel that it's fair for everybody.

[Colleen Arnold]

If I may add to that, we have what we call a “coalition”, so when Jean-Luc speaks about the industry, there are over 21 security service provider companies in Canada that are working together to discuss this and to get the message out there that a policy that was built in 1945 needs modernization. It was a great policy in 1945 when young men and women were coming back from the war and needed employment and needed employment quickly and didn't necessarily have the skills, bit it needs modernization.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

We will now go to the second vice-chair of the committee.

Mr. Desilets, the floor is yours for the next six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us.

These comments have been very interesting, constructive and useful to us. I would just like to recall that the objective of our committee and this study is to put forward recommendations. If you could direct your remarks to that, it would be helpful.

Mr. Meunier, in your presentation, you said that the right of first refusal was a regulatory mechanism that requires federal agencies to give priority to the Canadian Corps of Commissionaires before turning to other suppliers for the security guards it needs.

This is what I understood.

I hope you will forgive my ignorance or my naiveté in this regard, but I would like to know whether the regulatory mechanism is found in a federal law.

[Jean-Luc Meunier]

Yes, it is a policy of the Department of Veterans Affairs that governs it today. The Department of Public Works and Government Services helps to negotiate the rates.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Does that mean, in your view, that it applies at the provincial level?

[Jean-Luc Meunier]

Some provinces use it. They have copied the federal legislation to make the same kind of agreements with the provinces, particularly in the Prairies and the Maritimes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You also said earlier that all firms in the security industry were actively trying to recruit personnel. Again, I am having a bit of trouble understanding that.

Where is the problem? There are workers. However, there is also a need to find and hire those workers.

[Jean-Luc Meunier]

First, workers are harder to find today than they used to be.

Second, veterans are referred to the Canadian Corps of Commissionaires rather than to the industry. So we have to work a lot harder to recruit veterans. The interest of all of the veterans who come to us is different from the ones who choose the Canadian Corps of Commissionaires. You can ask Mr. Bernier, who will be able to testify himself as a former member of the military.

I don't want to start an argument against the Canadian Corps of Commissionaires. I want the discussion to help us recruit more veterans and do away with the notion that there is only one place where veterans can work, because that is not the case. We have so many opportunities to offer them, the industry and ourselves, including the Canadian Corps of Commissionaires.

The regulatory mechanism governing the right of first refusal could be modernized, in the interests of veterans, the Canadian government, and ourselves. From what we have understood at the Senate committees, we think it costs the Canadian government more to retain this mechanism as it stands. That is the sole perspective from which I am coming at the question.

In addition, there is a need for resources everywhere. If this mechanism could be modernized in everyone's interests and we could do business with Mr. Sangster, we would benefit from all the programs that can help to recruit veterans. We just need help to modernize this aging and out of date mechanism.

Mr. Bernier, I don't know whether you want to add something.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

There we are.

Mr. Bernier, you could perhaps add to your colleague's remarks, now that he has opened the door for you.

[Simon Bernier, National Director, Innovation and Technologies, Garda World Security Corporation]

We can say that the new generation of veterans no longer resembles the generation from 1945, the year when the right of first refusal mechanism was adopted. Personally, I am like a majority of members of the military, who do not complete their full service, and leave the forces after a decade or so.

Having myself obtained a master's degree after my service, I can tell you that private enterprise offered a much wider range of opportunities, for example in technology or innovation, than the government, which was directing us more to the Canadian Corps of Commissionaires, was doing.

I think there has to be an accreditation system for the industry, something like the ISO standard in the private sector. We could join it ourselves so that veterans didn't have to do it when they make their transition after their service. Private businesses could play that role, as we have done on our own initiative. That system would be incorporated into the Government of Canada programs.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Sangster, you said earlier that veterans were not the only group you wanted to reach and recruit. You are also looking at their family members, who could be recruited and work. I think that is a very interesting idea.

I would like to give you my last minute so you can give us some more information on that subject.

How do you see that working?

Is it a practice going on today?

Has it been successful?

[Michael Sangster]

I am aware of a few companies that have looked at this. I don't know of anyone who has done it.

We took your challenge of finding recommendations to bring to you today that could be valuable. We believe that putting together a group of employers and trade associations, which are approaching us on a daily basis looking for workers.... I believe they are looking for veterans. I think they are looking for the skills that come out of the military, from my own experience in dealing with the military over my career.

I would argue that bold programs that get more of those veterans into our colleges and get their families alongside at the same time would be very valuable for our country.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

I am finished, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

You did still have a minute left, but that's excellent, Mr. Desilets.

We will now conclude this first round of questions with the New Democratic Party.

I'd like to invite Ms. Rachel Blaney for six minutes or less, please.

Go ahead.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. It certainly won't be less. You know me, Chair.

First of all, I just want to say that I don't want to talk about the right of first refusal. In fact, if we start talking about it, I will immediately end the conversation, because in this study, what I'm interested in is how we best support veterans. If you're different from another organizations, that's cool; I don't care. I just want to hear what your success is. I want to get that out right away, because I just don't think this is the right place. I certainly acknowledge you're doing your work, and that's your business, but I just don't think this is the place for that discussion.

This is my first question, and I'm going to ask both of you. I'm going to start with GardaWorld Security Corporation.

I'm just curious. In the structure that you have, how are veterans in leadership and guiding you in the methods you are using to support veterans?

You can go first, and then I'll go over to the National Association of Career Colleges.

[Simon Bernier]

Thank you for the question, Madam Blaney.

Essentially, we had a chance to build a veterans advisory board internally. We have active reservists as well, both on the officer side and on the rank side, across the country. Not only do we have a voice through that board; we are actually listened to.

One clear example for that, which was not the case before, is that we've allowed for service members and veterans to wear their ribbons honouring the medals that they have earned throughout their service. This is a brand new initiative we have pushed forward.

Making them feel a fit with the culture in the organization is something that we strive for. That cultural fit is way broader than ribbons. We definitely push for having civilian members of the organization understand. As we say in Latin, audi alteram partem—listen to the other party—so that we can join at a certain point in the middle.

[Michael Sangster]

Thank you for the question.

NACC has 450 member colleges that make all their own employment decisions on who their leadership would be. Our organization is fairly small, with just eight employees. I don't currently have anybody on our team who has served in the military, I believe, but I welcome the idea. I think it is a very good idea to bring somebody into our organization directly. I do know that there are some within our colleges, but I couldn't give you a good idea of how many.

I like the idea. I'd like to look at it some more and get back to you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Yes, if there's a way that you could check that out with your colleges, I think that would be really helpful for this program, because I think leadership really.... I appreciate that. You talked about the wearing of ribbons. That's nice, but I understand that you talked about an advisory board. Hopefully, there is some staunch leadership in that role, because it's important.

I've read through a lot of research around the outcomes of employment for veterans. It's very clear that there are three particular groups that are struggling with employment after service. Those three groups are young veterans who have not had a lot of years of service; women veterans, although we still don't really know why, which is very concerning to me; and medically released veterans.

Knowing that those are the most vulnerable groups and that they don't have the best outcomes—that is what the research says—could you speak specifically about the strategies you're putting into place or considering that create opportunities for those three groups to participate in the supports that you have and the training that you have, and tell us what the outcomes are? How do you measure those outcomes, especially in those particular groups? Do you even measure those outcomes?

[Jean-Luc Meunier]

Military people are different, in that they don't behave the same way as the people we usually deal with. Usually our recruitment group was broadly all the same, so we decided, based on our experience and the committee that Simon is leading, to carve out some of the recruiters to be more versed in the military needs that these people might have. This helped us get a lot of success out of that. Hiring our veterans is different from hiring civilians.

In terms of females, we don't have stats on this aspect. I would like to help you out there, but I cannot. We didn't see the difference in our recruiting so far.

For people with problems, usually we have programs in the system to support these people. Usually when we hire them, in theory they don't have problems, but sometimes their problems occur after the fact. Then we have programs to take care of them afterward, when we notice these types of issues with these people.

[Colleen Arnold]

Just quickly, the entry-level security guard type of work is ideal for young people coming out of the service. It gives them the comfort of a uniform, structure and standing orders. We will go after them to come over to us, and then we can work with them to build a full career.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Do you have any statistical information on younger veterans?

[Colleen Arnold]

I'm sorry; we don't, but we can look for that.

[Michael Sangster]

I don't have statistics specific to veterans, but I do have some interesting studies I can share with you from Ontario that are focused around the type of learners we have and the success rates they tend to have.

We have found that in regulated career colleges, we have a higher graduation rate success and a higher employment rate, but we also have a higher over-30 average student age. About 60% of our students are women, 50% of our students in Ontario have children and 12% are single parents. When we look at that, we look at the small classroom sizes we developed and the specialized learning programs we developed. While it's not veterans, I think those groups that you're talking about are captured in there.

I'd like to spend some time with you looking at that in a little more depth and seeing if we can't find a way to capture more of that information for you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

We will now move to our second round of questions.

I'd like to invite the first VP of the committee, Mr. Blake Richards, to take the floor for five minutes, please.