Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 9th, 2023

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Perfect. Thank you.

Through you, Chair, I would like to direct my next question to Mr. Tremblay.

I know that you are quite entrepreneurial with your skill set. From your experience, have you seen that businesses are interested in hiring more veterans? Do you feel that these businesses have any concern about hiring a veteran?

[Alexandre Tremblay]

Thank you very much for the question Mr. Miao. I was hoping someone would ask me. The answer is definitely yes.

I'll give you an example. Our company is currently working with someone who is making the transition to civilian life, and who is going to leave the Canadian Armed Forces to begin working for one of our companies, Michel Larouche Consultants RH inc., which specializes in human resources. We are trying to promote this and trying to support organizations that work with veterans who have experienced post-traumatic shock. We would like to become specialists in that area.

Soldiers with skills in occupational health & safety are familiar with the work, the people and the training that's available. It would be extremely useful if their expertise could be recognized.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Tremblay.

Ms. Kristina Michaud now has the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for their service and for being here with us today.

I'd like to congratulate you, Mr. Tremblay, on the birth of your baby.

You worked in the reserve for approximately 10 years and then held various civilian jobs. You are now an entrepreneur. You took various kinds of training before getting to where you are now, and I would like to congratulate you on your accomplishments.

You mentioned that the services and programs available to reservists were not the same as those available to members of the Canadian Armed Forces, and that prior learning recognition was problematic.

What are you proposing? What form of mentoring could the Canadian Armed Forces or Veterans Affairs Canada provide in situations like these?

[Alexandre Tremblay]

Well, I had about 13 years of experience in the Canadian Armed Forces. But I don't know whether the programs for reservists are different from those available to active members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Here's what I suggest. It would be important to find out where the obstacles are. We've been talking about this for years, and it was discussed at various seminars with high-ranking officers: the skills of military personnel do not get the same recognition as civilians' skills.

You heard Mr. Davis raise an important point about security clearances. Why is the armed forces security clearance not recognized in civilian life? It's as if there were two parallel systems.

In the armed forces, standards and training are much more stringent and advanced than civilian ones. Infantry or armed forces adjutants are managers. And yet, once back in civilian life, there is no recognition for their skills even if they've been a manager responsible for 30 or 100 people. It's as if all of the managerial expertise acquired had disappeared when they left the military.

Some employers decided not to hire service members I had recommended, even though they had considerable personnel management expertise. When employers looked at the CVs, they said they were military CVs and that the people didn't have a degree. It's unfortunate, but there are people who think like that. I believe it's a poor way of benefiting from an individual's skills.

How come training in the military is not recognized in civilian life? Prior learning recognition is something concrete.

Here's the best possible example: the training of a master corporal is spread over numerous hours under the worst possible conditions. A master corporal learns how to teach in the classroom and prepare lesson plans, among other things. In civilian life, it would be equivalent to training as an instructor or teacher. And yet, even though these people would like their experience to be recognized in civilian life, they would not be able to become a teacher because all they have is an advanced leadership or instructor diploma from the Canadian Armed Forces. In civilian life, their skills are not recognized.

In my view, prior learning recognition would be something concrete that would help members of the military make the transition to civilian life. After 20 years in the Armed Forces, all kinds of training has been acquired. For example, Mr. Davis's CV must be extremely impressive, but once in civilian life, his military training won't be recognized. And yet, his background and experience are probably more substantial than what many civilians have.

Have I answered your question?

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

That's a very good answer to my question. Thank you very much.

That's extremely interesting and I think you're raising a very good point. I see that my colleagues around the table are nodding. One of the recommendations the committee could make to the government would be to finally recognize the skills of military personnel to facilitate their transition to civilian life. That would certainly help a lot of veterans.

We've been talking a lot about employment assistance, but we should perhaps be talking more about entrepreneurship support, because you also have that kind of experience. My colleague discussed it briefly earlier, and I found the suggestion that more should be done to help veterans become entrepreneurs to be a very interesting one.

My Liberal colleague asked you whether you hired veterans. Any entrepreneur who has previously done so is already open to that and doesn't need to be convinced about how important it is to hire veterans.

I don't know whether you have any suggestions about that and will give you the floor, because I see that there's only a minute left.

[Alexandre Tremblay]

I'm going to make a proposal and I'll be very brief about it.

I personally will always be prepared to hire veterans. Occupational health and safety is a field that's very accessible for veterans because they have a critical eye, leadership ability and poise, and are rarely impressed by stubborn people. So I don't need any convincing.

In terms of entrepreneurship, I think there's a lot of work still to be done. Everyone knows that entrepreneurial talent is hard to spot. But there's a way of helping people to develop their ideas.

You have my name, and some people no doubt have my telephone number. I'd be happy to have them call me and give them a hand with their efforts, if they need any assistance. I believe that veterans are highly competent or even overqualified, that they have leadership ability and are extremely…

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Tremblay.

[Alexandre Tremblay]

I wanted to talk about investments, but I'll…

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I know that you're disciplined, owing to your background, and will understand why I have to interrupt you to give the floor to the next speaker.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank the members here who have testified. Thank you both for your tremendous service.

Of course, Mr. Davis, I really appreciate the advocacy you're doing for the Persian Gulf War vets in bringing awareness and recognition of that situation. We must always acknowledge that service. When our country and citizens fail to do so, I think it's so important that you stand up and do that work and that we all do our best to support that voice being heard.

Coming back to this study, one of the things both of you talked about that impacted me was the idea of translating what it means when you serve into civilian skills, the fact that it isn't done at all and that often members will have to retake training for things they're already very skilled in to prove that they know what they know. I thought it was very important that you talked about the security clearance you received. Of course, when you move into civilian life, that clearance is not translated into civilian life. Again, it feels like a way of not celebrating the tremendous training and effort and the people who serve our country, and I think that's very shameful.

Could you speak a little about what you think would help with that? During the transition process, however that transition process goes in leaving the military and moving into civilian life, should there be a process included in which you have the military outline your qualifications, almost like a verification that you can bring to future employers? Do you think that would support veterans in moving forward into civilian life?

Mr. Davis, I will ask you first, and then Mr. Tremblay.

[Harold Davis]

I think there should be something prior to getting out so that the members to be able to take their UER—their unit employment record—and walk into an office over at the training building, as an example, and say, “I'd like all of this transcribed to show what I can do when I get out of the service on the civilian side.”

I have a one-inch binder. Every course I took in the military is in that binder. When I got my job with Shared Services Canada, the guy who was doing my thing asked, “Do you know how many courses you had on computer training?” I had listed them all on my resumé. I said, “No. I don't remember. I've been in an out of computers for years on aircraft, systems and stuff like that”. He said, “You've had 37 courses just on computer training alone”, and those certificates were in my book. As Mr. Tremblay said, they're not recognized on the outside, because they're military.

I took a three-month electronics course at the Saskatchewan Technical Institute back in the mid-1980s. There was a civilian instructor and a whole classroom of military people. They taught the exact same thing during their regular school year as they taught in the military. We walked out of there, and we never got one piece of paper from that institute telling us that in three months, we had just taken all the basic electronics that they teach in one year. We just took it, and it's not recognized anywhere. I get a diploma from the military. It has to be translated somewhere along the line.

It's the same thing with security clearances. I have the “secret” military security clearance. I've had it for 30-odd years. I go over to Shared Services to work for the same government—remember, I'm going to be working for the same government—yet my security clearance from DND does not translate over to the Shared Services civilian side of the house. All you had to do is walk the paper across the road, but they didn't do it. That's another time lag that could be incorporated. When the member is getting close to release, within six months he could walk into training with all of his UERs, start the process right away, and have it all done before he walks out that door. Once he walks out that door, all of the support he has is not there anymore. It's gone.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That was an excellent answer, Mr. Davis.

Mr. Tremblay, I'd love to hear from you.

[Alexandre Tremblay]

Mr. Davis has in fact, identified the major challenge with respect to prior learning recognition.

I'll put on my entrepreneur/investor hat to talk about the financial side of things. Human and financial aspects are important. They are the key to prior learning recognition.

I don't know how many thousands of dollars Canada contributed to Mr. Davis's training. In my case, Canada invested tens of thousands of dollars to give me warrant officer training until I was promoted to my rank.

And yet, when people leave the military, no one reaps the rewards of this investment. That's really too bad, in my opinion. It's as if Canada were shooting itself in the foot, because it spent all kinds of money training people who could become agents of change and make an economic contribution to their country. At the end of the line, it's as if we were throwing money away, because the expensive investment is lost when someone who has acquired a lot of skills returns to civilian life.

It's all very well to appear before committees, but we want the training that has been given to veterans to help them become agents of change. From an entrepreneurial standpoint, when you help veterans to develop, put their ideas forward and contribute to economic development, you find yourself with people who have already been trained and who are able to generate millions of dollars and create jobs. If you send people like that back to school to repeat the training they've already had, then you're wasting one, two or three years of investment. And I'm only talking about the financial aspect here.

From the human standpoint now, it's extremely…

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Tremblay, we'll wait a while to discuss the human side of things. You'll be able to speak again later, but time is short at the moment.

We are going to a final round of questions. This time, I'll give people three minutes in order to finish within our scheduled time.

I will start with Mr. Terry Dowdall, please. You have three minutes.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to take an opportunity to thank our guests for being here as well, and for their service.

I've been especially listening to the testimony from Mr. Davis about the frustrations that he had and still hears. That's the number one thing I'm getting constantly, whether it's emails or veterans I'm running into in my riding. They are frustrated with Veteran Affairs Canada and how complicated it is to see what channel they actually fit into as somebody coming out of the service.

How can we make that simpler?

[Harold Davis]

I don't know how you can make it simpler. It is very simple. As I said earlier, over in the training building, turn around and have an office for release. Let the member go in there and have his qualifications transcribed before he walks out the door, because once he walks out the door, he's done. He has no backing of the military anymore. He gets his two-dollar pin and walks out the door. He's done. VAC doesn't even start to look at you unless you have a medical claim done. Unless you're on a medical release, like I was, then there's no support. You have to rely on all the other agencies that are out there—Helmets to Hardhats and all the other ones—

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

It's hard to know all of those. That's the problem.

How do we get 6,000 homeless veterans through the program to know all these options and corporations that are out there?

Here's another quick question. Do you think that VAC, as an organization, is walking the walk, when we hear that 4.95% of their employees are actually veterans?

[Harold Davis]

In some cases, yes; in some cases, no. I know....

I've helped veterans with VAC. They get a civilian case manager, and a lot of what they actually need is not carried out. When they end up with a military-background case manager who understands what that veteran is actually going through, things change 120%. I've watched it in different veterans who have contacted me saying they need help with VAC.

As I said, when you get out of the military, unless you have a claim.... Most members don't even know how to put a claim in to VAC while they're still serving. They don't think they are allowed. They just don't know where to go sometimes, once they get out. I hate to say it, but honestly, they just fall through the cracks.

You know how hard it is to tell a veteran to go and ask for welfare. I've had to do it. It hurts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Davis.

Now let's go to another intervention. We have Mr. Churence Rogers for three minutes, please.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to Mr. Davis and Mr. Tremblay for being here with us and giving us the benefit of their experiences.

Earlier, I listened to the gentleman from Helmets to Hardhats. I was very encouraged by his positive presentation and the things they're doing for veterans. I was very encouraged that we're getting somewhere. They're taking advantage of the funding program for education and the family well-being fund and so on, and doing some great work, but I just want to hear from Mr. Davis and his experiences. I'm not sure what else can be done in terms of connecting you with that group or others and trying to work in collaboration with them to provide support for veterans.

I'd like to know if there's one thing in particular—because we have a very short time period here—you would like for us as a committee to recommend to Veteran Affairs that could assist your group and veterans that you dial up with.

[Harold Davis]

That's a very hard question to answer, because every veteran has a different story, and that story dictates which way they're going to go.

You mentioned Veterans Affairs. Again, Veterans Affairs doesn't work with veterans who are not clients. It's hard for a veteran who got out on a normal release to gain any help. His contract is up, and he's walking out the door. He has to go to the other.... I'll call them “options”, because there are so many different guys or organizations out there, trying to help veterans. However, he doesn't know them all, because nobody tells him on the way out the door from the military. They just say, as I said, “Here are your pin. Here's your flag, now. We're giving you a flag.”

If you're on normal release, you're finished. You're out the door. Once you leave and go through that gate, you're on your own, unless you have a claim with Veterans Affairs.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Time is very short here. I'm sorry to interrupt.

Is there something you think we should be doing, as a committee, and recommending to support veterans? I'd appreciate it if you could send along some ideas in writing to our clerk. We'd appreciate that, because we know you have a lot to offer.

[Harold Davis]

Thank you.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Mr. Tremblay, in your experience, where do you think most veterans gravitate, in terms of jobs? Is it in construction, security, or health and safety? What are your experiences?