Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to the fourth meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on February 8, 2022, the committee is meeting to study the desecration of monuments honouring veterans.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Today's meeting is also taking place in a webinar format. Webinars are for public committee meetings and are available only to members, their staff and witnesses. Members enter immediately as active participants. All functionalities for active participants remain the same. Staff will be non-active participants and can therefore only view the meeting in gallery view.

I would like to take the opportunity to remind all participants at this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen are not permitted.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

As a final reminder, all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the Chair.

With respect to the list of speakers, the clerk of the committee and I will do our best to maintain the speaking order for all members, whether they're attending the meeting in person or remotely.

I will let you know, as usual, when you have about a minute left and your time is up, so that you can wrap up, please.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses. They're with us for the duration of the meeting, until 8:30 p.m.

We have with us, from the Department of National Defence, Stephen Harris, chief historian with the directorate of history and heritage; from the Department of Public Works and Government Services, Stéphan Déry, assistant deputy minister with the real property services branch; and from the Department of Veterans Affairs, Crystal Garrett‑Baird, acting assistant deputy minister with strategic policy and commemoration.

We'll move to opening statements from the witnesses. Each group will have five minutes for their presentation, and then we'll move on to questions from members. I know that Stephen Harris, from the Department of National Defence, won't be making any opening remarks.

Without further ado, I would invite Stéphan Déry from the Department of Public Works and Government Services to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Déry, you have exactly five minutes for your presentation.

Go ahead, please.

[Stéphan Déry, Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Services Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, everyone.

I am pleased to appear before this committee for the first time as assistant deputy minister for the real property services branch at Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC, to discuss the important role PSPC plays in protecting and maintaining the National War Memorial, as well as the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

PSPC manages one of the largest and most diverse portfolios of real estate in the country and is the Government of Canada's real estate expert.

PSPC provides safe, healthy and productive working environments for over 260,000 federal employees across Canada, including accommodation to parliamentarians and a full range of real property services.

We are also custodian of special purpose and iconic assets, including bridges, dams and monuments such as the National War Memorial and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

This monument is deeply symbolic and important to Canadians, as it recognizes the sacrifices of all Canadian Armed Forces personnel who have served Canada and helped the country become what it is today, including Corporal Nathan Cirillo, who passed away at the site during the tragic event of October 22, 2014.

PSPC shares custodianship of the National War Memorial site with the National Capital Commission, and both organizations take great pride in playing an important role in the maintenance of the site. Over time, PSPC has developed important partnerships with the NCC, the Ottawa Police Service and the parliamentary precinct security operations centre, as well as with key stakeholders such as the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada, to ensure appropriate coordination of security-related matters at or near the site. Ensuring the safety and security of the site is a joint effort, but ultimately the policing of the site is under the jurisdiction of the Ottawa Police Service. All security-related incidents, including any desecrations, are reported to the Ottawa Police Service immediately for their action.

Unfortunately, given the national significance of the National War Memorial, it can be perceived as a strategic target by some groups, including protestors, which has occasionally resulted in damage to the monument and otherwise disrespectful behaviour. Protests such as the occupation of the National War Memorial site from July 2020 to October 2020 by organizations known as “the Canadian revolution” and the ongoing convoy protests require a delicate balance between applying our authority under the Public Works nuisances regulations and the need to balance jurisdiction, legislation, the right to protest and human rights.

Following the occupation of the site in 2020, PSPC acknowledged that similar incidents were likely to become more frequent in the future. As a mitigation measure, PSPC developed a security incident playbook designed to facilitate an effective and coordinated response among stakeholders to similar events impacting monuments, buildings, engineering and/or architectural assets under the custodianship of PSPC. Over the last few weeks, PSPC has used the playbook to guide their actions in an attempt to mitigate risks and damage to monuments and buildings in Ottawa's downtown core.

Notably, PSPC, at the request of the City of Ottawa and the NCC, has installed temporary fencing and barriers around several monuments, including the National War Memorial, the National Aboriginal Veterans Monument and the Monument to Canadian Fallen to ensure their integrity and prevent them from damage and vandalism.

In closing, I want to stress that there is no excuse for the desecration of national monuments. Public Services and Procurement Canada will continue to work with its partners to ensure that these important monuments are safeguarded from damage and otherwise disrespectful behaviour.

I am confident that the lessons learned as part of the government's response to the aforementioned situations at the National War Memorial will be helpful to guide future decision‑making regarding the protection of monuments, and that it will help this committee in its study.

Thank you for inviting me to appear. I am happy to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Déry.

Now let's go to Ms. Garrett-Baird for her allocution.

Please open your mike. You have five minutes.

[Crystal Garrett-Baird, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy and Commemoration, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Good evening, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for inviting me to join you today.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that the land I speak to you from is the traditional and unceded territory of the Abegweit Mi'kmaq first nation.

I also want to take a moment to recognize that today is National Flag of Canada Day, a day to reflect on what the flag means to each of us. It was Canadian Second World War veteran, George Stanley, who designed our national flag.

Thank you for your concern about Canada's national monuments that honour veterans, such as the National War Memorial, the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, and the National Aboriginal Veterans Monument, all of which are sacred and symbolic.

In addition to providing benefits and services to support the well-being of veterans and their families, the department has a mandate to keep alive the memory of the achievements and sacrifices of those who served Canada in times of war, military conflict and peace. We do so by engaging Canadians of all ages in paying tribute to veterans and those who died in service, ensuring that the legacy of their tremendous contributions to peace and freedom are preserved for generations to come.

Veterans Affairs Canada fulfills this core responsibility through two distinct programs. The Canada remembers program ensures that those who served in Canada's military efforts are honoured, and that the memory of their sacrifices and achievements is preserved. This is done through ceremonies, events, honours, awards and telling the stories of brave Canadians who have served.

The funeral and burial program provides financial assistance for the funeral, burial and grave marking expenses of qualified veterans.

Our commemoration work requires working closely with partners and stakeholders, including other federal institutions, veterans organizations, non‑governmental organizations, municipalities, schools and museums. Our partner organizations share our commitment to honouring those who have served Canada. I'll talk more about this collaboration with respect to memorials in a moment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Just a second, please. Mr. Rogers, go ahead.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Mr. Chair, I'm having a hard time understanding the translation, because the volume is comparable to what the speaker is saying, so it's not very clear at all. Can they adjust the sound there?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Rogers.

I'm going to ask the clerk to verify with the technicians to see if this can be resolved.

Please wait, Ms. Garrett-Baird. It won't be long.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Cédric Taquet]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Ms. Garrett-Baird, but please make sure that when you speak, you have the floor selected. I think that's why we've got the same volume for English and French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Let's go back to Ms. Garrett-Baird. You have more than two minutes left.

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

Monuments and cenotaphs recognize the commitment and sacrifices of Canadians who have served. They are a public space to remember the selfless duty of Canadians who have bravely put their lives on the line in the defence of peace and freedom. These monuments and cenotaphs also give future generations an opportunity to learn and remember.

The National War Memorial, also called “The Response”, was built after the First World War and symbolizes the sacrifices of all Canadians who have served in the cause of peace and freedom. It is the site of Canada's annual national Remembrance Day ceremony, organized by the Royal Canadian Legion. It was also the site where Corporal Nathan Cirillo tragically passed away on October 22, 2014.

Over the years, the highly visible and prolific memorial has been rededicated to include other conflicts and missions. The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier was added to the memorial in 2000 and serves as a reminder to all Canadians of the human cost of our country's commitment to peace and freedom. The richly symbolic National Aboriginal Veterans Monument was unveiled in 2001. The sculpture is a tribute to the many indigenous peoples who served for, and defended the freedom of our country over the years. It reflects traditional—

[The Clerk]

Ms. Garrett-Baird, I'm sorry to interrupt you. The interpreters are asking me if you could just hold your boom mike a little farther from your mouth. It's too close right now.

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

Thank you.

These monuments and several others located in the national capital region are visible records of our identity as a nation. The National Capital Commission plays an important role in protecting these cultural assets, and managing them as part of Canada's legacy.

Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC, acts as the custodian and maintains the National War Memorial site, the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and the National Aboriginal Veterans Monument.

As a key stakeholder, Veterans Affairs Canada works with the National Capital Commission and PSPC concerning the National War Memorial, Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, National Aboriginal Veterans Monument and other commemorative structures. We closely work with other partners, as well, to organize ceremonies and events for commemorative milestones.

I want to take this time to thank PSPC and the National Capital Commission for their work and support on commemoration and over the past number of weeks. These updates have enabled us to keep our stakeholders informed.

We know the situation in recent weeks has been challenging, and our priority is the health and well-being of our veterans.

Thank you for your time today. It has been a pleasure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Now we're going to start the round of questions.

I would like to ask members to say, when they ask their questions, who it's for because we have officials from three departments: the Department of National Defence, Public Services and Procurement Canada and the Department of Veterans Affairs.

Before we go to the first question, I'm going to give the floor to Luc Desilets, who wants to say something.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Yes, Mr. Chair.

Could you tell us how we are going to get ahead of the votes tonight? I think the bells are going to ring at 8:00 p.m. Are we going to wait until 8:30 p.m.?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Here's what I wanted to suggest to committee members.

The bells should ring at 8:00 p.m., but we know the vote is at 8:30 p.m. So I was going to ask all members if they wanted to continue the meeting for about 15 minutes and stop around 8:15 p.m. so that we could use our cellphones to vote.

I would like the committee's consent, but I was planning to do that as soon as the bells ring. It could be 8:00 p.m. or 8:05 p.m. The clerk will notify me as soon as the bells ring, and I will seek the consent of all committee members to that effect.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

The first questions will be asked by the committee's first vice‑chair.

Monsieur Caputo, the floor is yours for six minutes. Please go ahead.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for attending. Chief historian and both assistant deputy ministers, like most Canadians, I was very much disturbed by what we have seen. I rose in the House of Commons two Mondays ago to reflect how I felt.

This message is for all three witnesses. I'm going to read out some language, because we're looking at how we should best move forward. The question relates to subsection 430(4.11) of the Criminal Code, which says:

Everyone who commits mischief in relation to property that is a building, structure or part thereof that primarily serves as a monument to honour persons who were killed or died as a consequence of a war, including a war memorial or cenotaph, or an object associated with honouring or remembering those persons that is located in or on the grounds of such a building or structure, or a cemetery is guilty of an indictable offence or an offence punishable on summary conviction...

It then gives the penalties section. The maximum sentence when proceeding by indictment is 10 years.

The question I have to all three witnesses is whether you believe that these provisions are adequate and/or appropriate, given your knowledge in this area.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Let's start with Mr. Harris.

[Dr. Stephen Harris, Chief Historian, Directorate of History and Heritage, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, I'm afraid I'm going to have to say I am a historian and that question is beyond my purview as the representative here as the chief historian.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Mr. Déry, you're second.

[Stéphan Déry]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have to say that as the manager/custodian to the site, I'm not responsible for the law enforcement at the site. We monitor the site 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and we report any incident to law enforcement so that they can take action at any of our sites that we manage.

Therefore, I wouldn't be able to comment on whether the wording in the Criminal Code is strong enough or the actions that could be taken by law enforcement would well serve what's written in the Criminal Code.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Ms. Garrett-Baird, I don't know if you'd like to intervene.

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

The mandate of Veterans Affairs Canada is to keep the memory alive of the achievements and sacrifices of all those who served Canadians in times of war, military conflict and peace. We do not have any role in law enforcement or anything of the sort.

We're very focused on providing benefits and services to veterans and their families in the interest of their well-being and, as I noted, to commemorate those sacrifices and achievements.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you all for your answers.

I'm not sure whether anybody will be able to answer this, but I will ask the question.

To all three, are any of you aware of how often the memorials and cenotaphs are targeted by vandalism?

[Dr. Stephen Harris]

Mr. Chair, I'm not aware of those statistics at all.