Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Déry, for your answer.

I understand that there is open access to these monuments for anyone who would like to visit them. Is there the potential to put something permanent to protect this in the near future?

You mentioned that there are security cameras monitoring the site 24-7. At the same time, there are possibly times when someone intends to vandalize these monuments and has not been penalized or brought to the attention of the police force.

Do you feel the necessity of putting something there permanently or having security there during specific times to protect these monuments?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Answer in 10 seconds, please, Mr. Déry, if you can.

[Stéphan Déry]

We also have a patrol that goes to the monument twice at night and twice after dinner, at nine o'clock, eleven o'clock, and one o'clock and three o'clock in the morning. We have the patrol of a commissionaire who goes around the site to make sure that everything is okay in addition to the camera monitoring 24-7.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Déry.

We will now continue with Mr. Desilets for two and half minutes.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Harris, we're going to get you to talk for a bit. In your experience as a historian, is this the product of human stupidity, or have we seen acts like this regularly in the past?

[Dr. Stephen Harris]

I'm afraid I didn't get all of the question. As the interpreter said, the sound cut out after about 10 seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'll stop the clock and check it with the clerk. I know that, in the room, we have had a little sound problem. Can the clerk tell us whether the situation has been resolved?

[The Clerk]

We could have a solution to this problem. Would the Committee agree to suspend the meeting for five minutes so that we can try to solve the problem?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes, absolutely.

In view of the difficulties encountered by interpretation, the meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We will resume the meeting.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor. I invite you to start again from the beginning, since only a few seconds had elapsed and the witness hadn't understood the question.

You have two and a half minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

My question was for Mr. Harris.

I would like to know whether, as a historian, Mr. Harris sees these events as isolated acts, produced by the stupidity of a few individuals, or whether such acts against monuments have occurred regularly in the past.

[Dr. Stephen Harris]

That's actually a tough question to answer. I don't recall monuments having been attacked like this, certainly not this kind of monument, a monument to the fallen. Spread across the country, units erect monuments to their own, and they aren't required to report to us anything that happens to them. I have never heard of anything like this happening elsewhere before. That makes me hope that it's an isolated event, but the one thing I was taught as an historian is that historians don't predict because they don't always agree on the past.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Ha, ha! Well said! I really like your statement.

This situation affects the members of the Committee, that is obvious. Veterans are the reason this committee exists. In your opinion, is it a lack of education on the part of the public that underlies this kind of behaviour?

[Dr. Stephen Harris]

Was that directed at me, sir?

I'm not sure it's a lack of education, because for Veterans Affairs, I know their programs well. Their outreach programs reach into schools across the country. When it comes to the overseas commemorative events, the major news networks broadcast live. I think a Canadian who was not aware of the service and sacrifice of the past is probably not aware of a lot, if I can put it that way.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Desilets. You know, two and half minutes goes by fast.

Now, I will ask Ms. Blaney to take the floor for two and half minutes.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. Through you, I would like to come back to Mr. Déry.

I have a question. Earlier, you talked about the need to balance jurisdiction, legislation, the right to protest and human rights. You also talked about the Public Works nuisances regulations. I know that subsection 6(1) states, “No person shall occupy, reside, camp or sleep in or upon any public work or use any vehicle for the purpose of occupying a public work or residing, camping, or sleeping thereon.”

I guess my question is, where and how do we draw the line—and who draws the line—between the protesters' lack of respect to the veterans and the monuments and the need for protection?

You spoke also about that space for the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, and there's that grassy part, which I've seen people camp out on before. I just wanted to ask about that as well, about just the jurisdiction of who is in charge of what part, and how you figure out how to address these issues when some people come in—for example, in that protest in 2020—and camp there for an extended amount of time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Déry, go ahead.

[Stéphan Déry]

This is a complicated question. It doesn't seem like it, but, Mr. Chair, let me explain.

In 2020, at some point there were two tents on the west side of the monument, behind, and the east side of the monument. The nuisance regulation under the Public Works nuisances regulations could only apply to the west side of the monument, because this ground was owned by PSPC at the time. The east side of the monument was owned by Parks Canada, and the nuisances regulations are only for Public Works grounds, so they wouldn't apply there. There are a lot of people involved—lawyers, legal, law enforcement officers and coordination with all of our colleagues—in measuring the risk of damage to the monument and interventions and what will be the gain from the interventions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much. Your time is over.

Now let's go to Ms. Anna Roberts.

Go ahead for for five minutes, please.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I have a couple of questions. I am a little confused too, to be honest with you. It sounds as though this house is owned by three different people, and I often wonder who takes care of what and who assigns those duties. It's quite confusing. I think sometimes we should simplify things and give jurisdiction to one area.

My question to you is this. Given the lessons learned during this protest, we can all agree here that the monuments are very important to every Canadian. What our veterans do for us, for our freedoms, is very important, and we value them. Given the lessons we've learned, what measures do you recommend be taken to ensure no further destruction occurs? How can we protect our monuments?

Given the recent situation, you recommended that the monument be secured with cameras. There was also a mention that every two hours, I believe—and maybe I have that wrong—the police rotate and inspect it.

Given the protest and given what we've seen, would it not be beneficial for it to be monitored on a 24-7 basis?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Déry.

[Stéphan Déry]

Thank you for the question.

Mr. Chair, if you will allow me, I will answer really quickly on the custodianship of the land.

We used to be three custodians before 2020. We are resolving that. We are now owners. Parks Canada is not an owner of ground there anymore. It's owned by PSPC with the NCC. We have resolved some of these difficulties and the ownership of the land so we can make better decisions and faster decisions, consulting with all of our partners.

As I mentioned, four times a night there is a patrol at the monument by a commissionaire.

There is also a closed circuit camera, an upgraded one, which is monitored 24 hours a day, seven days a week by our parliamentary operations centre, from where they can react quickly, advising the City of Ottawa that something is happening at the site.

The site is not part of the parliamentary precinct, so it's not policed by the Parliamentary Protective Services. It's policed by the Ottawa Police, so it's under the jurisdiction of the Ottawa Police, but that oversight is done by monitoring cameras that are 24 hours, seven days a week .

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you for that.

Through you, Mr. Chair, help me understand this. If the security cameras are on 24 hours and they are being monitored, do we have any idea of the individuals who have destroyed or vandalized the monuments? If we have the security, is it possible to get identification so that they can be brought to justice?

[Stéphan Déry]

I believe the question is addressed to me. Mr. Chair, if you will allow me, I will answer.

All that video footage is passed on to the police services for prosecution, so they can find out who has committed the outrageous lack of respect.

I have one in front of me. On January 29 at 5:26 in the morning, two individuals who appeared to be males, wearing black coats, arrived at the southeast area of the monument and they did what they had to do. That was reported to the police with a clear image from camera number 12. That is the kind of monitoring that is done.

I would also like to put into perspective that for the last five years, we are talking about 17 incidents—five of those happening in the last three weeks. Take into consideration that with approximately five million Canadians visiting the site over the last five years, there have been 17 incidents.

I think the committee has to look at that when they make recommendations with respect to how open the site is versus locking the site up and preventing Canadians from accessing the site.