Veterans Affairs Committee on March 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 44 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee undertakes its study on the experience of women veterans.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Members can participate in person or via Zoom.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline the following rules for you to follow.

Before you speak, please wait for me to recognize you by name. If you are participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone. Please put it on mute when you are not speaking.

For interpretation, you now know how to select the language of your choice.

I remind you that all comments from members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

In accordance with our routine motion regarding connection testing, I wish to inform the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection testing prior to the meeting.

Before we welcome our witnesses, I would like to provide this trigger warning. We will be discussing experiences related to mental health. This may be triggering to viewers, members or staff with similar experiences. If you feel distressed or need help, please advise the clerk.

I would also like to let committee members know that Kelly Farrah, an analyst, is with us today. I thank her for being here. I am now going to introduce our guests.

Because the committee is starting this important study about veterans, we are very happy to have you with us for this first meeting.

From the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman, I would like to welcome retired Colonel Nishika Jardine, veterans ombud; Duane Schippers, deputy veterans ombud; and Dr. Laura Kelly, director of the strategic review and analysis directorate.

Ms. Jardine, you will have five minutes to make your presentation. I will let you know when you have one minute left or when your speaking time is up. The floor is now yours for the next five minutes.

[Col, Ret'd) Nishika Jardine (Veterans Ombud, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman]

Good evening Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for inviting me to address you on the subject of the experience of women Veterans. I understand this is the first time that the Committee has dedicated a series of meetings solely focused on women Veterans. As a woman Veteran myself, I am honoured that you have chosen me to lead off this historic undertaking.

In Canada, women have had access to every occupation and trade of the Canadian Armed Forces since 1989, when the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal in Brown v. Canadian Armed Forces disagreed with the argument that women would negatively affect the operational effectiveness of its combat arms.

However, since its inception, the CAF is and has been a predominantly male institution. Its approach to implementing gender integration and equal opportunity was to simply absorb women into its ranks by ignoring their differences as much as possible. It seemed to make sense, and for the most part we servicewomen wanted only to be treated the same as everyone else.

In the Canadian Armed Forces, the policies on pay, benefits, promotion criteria, and performance requirements are applied equally to everyone. Even the physical fitness requirements evolved to a single common standard for all. However, women and men are different, and the effects of military service on women differ from the effects of service on men.

In October 2021, my office published in the Journal of Military, Veteran and Family Health a scoping literature review on women veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces and Royal Canadian Mounted Police. In this review of academic literature and government documents, we focused on the experiences of Canadian women veterans as a whole rather than on a single issue. I would strongly recommend the scoping review to the committee, as it provides a comprehensive summary of the current research findings on the experience of Canadian women veterans.

There is evidence that military service impacts women differently in terms of their physical health, their mental health, their financial security and their transition from military to veteran and from service life to civilian life. While much less is known about women members and veterans of the RCMP, there is no doubt in my mind that this group of women, with unique service to Canada, deserves equal attention.

What is missing from the research is the reason why there are such significant differences between the experiences of women and men veterans.

I would encourage researchers to look not only at these differences, but also to compare women veterans with women in the Canadian general population in order to more clearly identify the problems that are unique to them.

Most importantly, women veterans must be understood as a distinct group. While some female veterans are also spouses or widows or identify with other equity-deserving groups, just like some male veterans, they are a unique population with unique needs because of their sex or gender.

For example, the Veterans Affairs Canada, or VAC, Client Survey provides the Department with a way to gauge satisfaction with their programs and services. However, their reports don’t distinguish among the female or women respondents: rather, spouses, widows and women veterans are simply lumped together. I would suggest that this is unacceptable today. VAC must do a better job of understanding the needs of women veterans and this must be apparent.

During the course of our systemic reviews, my office has consistently recommended that VAC publish the GBA+ analyses required to inform all departmental activities. GBA+, when done correctly, will allow VAC to better understand how its policies may have differential impacts not only on women veterans but on all equity-deserving groups that seek access to the benefits and programs that Parliament has created for all of Canada's veterans.

I would also recommend proactive investment in the research questions that still remain all these many years since women have been serving in our Canadian Armed Forces and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. We will not see equitable outcomes for women veterans and all equity-deserving veterans until this is prioritized in terms of both resources and data collection.

In summary, I would say this. While we just wanted to be one of the guys when I first started my military career in 1982, today we know that the differences and the many intersectional factors of our individual identities are key to understanding and meeting the unique needs of Canada's women veterans.

I cannot thank you enough for making this study a priority, and I look forward to your recommendations.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Jardine, for your opening remarks.

Now we are going to start with the rounds of questions. First of all, I would like to remind all members to address questions to me and to indicate to whom a question is directed.

I would ask that you kindly manage your time to allow the witnesses to answer your questions.

We will now begin the round of questions.

I will turn the floor over to Blake Richards for the next six minutes.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you very much for being here, Colonel Jardine. Thank you for your service to our country, for your time in the forces and, of course, for the service you provide now as the ombud.

What an appropriate way it is to start this very important study with you here, someone who served and who continues to serve veterans to this very day. We saw how important this is to you in the emotion you showed as you gave your testimony. I think that's great to see. Thank you for that.

I'll start off with a question for you about a letter you recently released, which you sent to the minister, about the clawback of pensions of those who received a settlement in the Merlo Davidson case. For those who aren't aware of the situation, can I ask you to briefly summarize the case and what the situation is? Tell us why you're so concerned about that.

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

Thank you for your question.

The Merlo Davidson settlement was for women of the RCMP who had been victims of or who had experienced sexual misconduct during the course of their service. The settlement had six levels of claim, if you will. We received complaints from RCMP women veterans who were getting part of their disability pensions clawed back based on the settlement monies they had received. We did a review of this matter. We found that, in our estimation, for those who had received a level 1 or a level 2 settlement amount and who had also put in for a disability pension, those two things were not the same.

We all understand that government cannot and must not compensate people for the same thing twice. We understand that, but we found that for level 1 and level 2 it was not the same. They were not being compensated for the same thing if they had put in for a disability pension for, let's say, PTSD. For levels 3 to 6, we saw there may have been some overlap.

The recommendation we made to the minister was that for anyone receiving level 1 or level 2 compensation and also receiving a disability pension, anything that had been clawed back from them should be reimbursed to them fully, and that for levels 3 to 6, the minister should publish exactly how they determined what amount of clawback was being taken from their pensions based on the settlement amount. That is the letter I put in to the minister.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Have you had a response to that letter? What was the response? If there was one, did you find it satisfactory?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

Yes, I did receive a response from the minister. I understand that the department is looking into the matter and is reaching out to the women they have found who are in that situation. They're reaching out to them to clarify where they're at. I don't know how else to say it better than that.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

How I would read that is that it's damage control. To me, if you're going to fix the situation, wouldn't you just come out and say it?

Maybe I'm misreading that. Tell me what your thoughts are on that. Is that the read you have on it?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

No. We all understand that public servants and our departments must do due diligence. What we understand is that the women they found in their file search put in their statements that they had been compensated and that it was the same compensation. However, they did not know that; they didn't know what they were.... They were very honest. The department needs to go back to these women and speak to them about what they'd put there.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Okay. I appreciate that.

Moving on, I often hear from veterans who have had a negative experience with Veterans Affairs. That's obviously a huge part of what you do. They often express reservations about coming forward, including to you, because they're concerned about the repercussions they might face from Veterans Affairs. Will they lose access to the benefits or services they rely on if they speak out or say something?

I wonder if you could tell us a bit about that so veterans can hear from you today. What happens when a veteran comes to you with a complaint about VAC? What can you do, and what do you do, to ensure they are protected from retaliation by Veterans Affairs and are able to maintain their anonymity if they choose to?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

First of all—and this is what I say at every town hall I go to—the people at Veterans Affairs care about what they do. I cannot believe and I will not believe that anyone would be retaliatory. I know that it may feel that way to some veterans, but it is not the case. In my heart I believe that. I believe they care deeply about the work they do.

In terms of confidentiality, when a veteran, their family or whoever is a client of the department comes to our office, we ask for their consent to look into their complaint. With their consent, we look into their file, because we have access to it. If we find that there has been unfairness, we need to go to the department to seek a resolution for that. In order to seek that resolution, we need to say who they are. In many of the cases, we're able to achieve that resolution.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Colonel Jardine.

Now I'd like to invite Mrs. Rechie Valdez to go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you to the witnesses who have joined us to kick off this very important study, and thank you to those who have served this country and those who continue to support our veterans.

I'll direct my questions to Colonel Jardine.

I read in an article that most of the support systems have been “designed around men”. The article says there are “gaps in knowledge”. These “can lead to increased rates of injury and illness and decrease the well-being of women veterans”.

I would like your input on this.

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

Given the manner in which we serve in the Canadian Forces or the RCMP, it's demanding service. As I mentioned in my remarks, the way women were integrated was to bring them in and just treat them like one of the guys. What we understand today is that in doing that, there have been harms. Women suffer greater injury regarding musculoskeletal health, mental health and physical health. The conditions of service affect them differently than they do men.

At Veterans Affairs, the table of disabilities was originally designed for men. For example, for one of the studies we did recently, we published a report on the sex-based bias we found in just one tiny portion of that table of disabilities: the process for evaluating sexual dysfunction. The questionnaire that goes to the doctor, for example, specifically asks, “Is there sexual dysfunction?” if the person sitting in front of the doctor is a man. For women, a similar question is not there. PTSD and psychiatric and mental health issues could have adverse impacts on a woman's sexual health as well, but they are invisible. The table of disabilities was silent on that.

We found this sex-based bias in that one tiny portion of the programs and benefits offered to all veterans and to women veterans. We asked the department to take a close look at everything in the table of disabilities and examine where there might be sex-based bias or things missing.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to be cautious about how I ask the next question, because it's more sensitive.

Studies have shown a link between combat exposure and PTSD. What I want to hear is whether there are any nuances as far as exposure affecting women veterans' mental health goes. Are there any nuances unique to women veterans?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I don't have the answer to that. I think this is a big part of the gap in the research.

I'm going to ask my colleague Dr. Kelly whether there is anything in our scoping review that she might be able to point to.

[Dr. Laura Kelly, Director, Strategic Review and Analysis Directorate, Office of the Veterans Ombudsman]

Thank you.

I can't speak specifically to combat arms, but generally speaking, what we found in terms of mental health is that, compared with men veterans, women veterans have higher rates of depression and are more likely to have a panic disorder, a social phobia, generalized anxiety disorder or PTSD. Compared with women in the Canadian general population, they are more likely to have PTSD.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

In previous testimony at this committee, we heard from various veterans that it's tough to transition into normal life or life after serving. You listed a whole bunch of different stress anxieties someone would go through. Could you add some colour to that? What would it be like, then, to transition to normal life?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

When you're in the military—I'll speak for the military because that's my service—it's your whole life. It's not a nine-to-five job. It's an “every minute of every day” career. It's the life you've chosen and it's all-encompassing.

The day you walk out the door.... I still have trouble with it. When I left the Canadian Forces, I didn't even realize until the night before that this was it. I was never getting posted again. I didn't have another job to go to. You go in, sign the piece of paper and leave your ID card on the table, and then you walk out the door.

For me, it was devastating because I didn't know who I was if I wasn't wearing a uniform. I've heard that from other veterans: They don't know who they are when they take off the uniform. I drove directly to Service Ontario and got veterans plates on my car. It was hugely important to me.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I just want to say thank you for your service and thank you for all you do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank my colleagues and our guests for being here in person this evening.

Col. Jardine, it is my great pleasure to see you again, sincerely. You have done a brilliant job in this position. I am not saying I will always agree with what you say, but I have enormous respect for you.

I would like to go back to a few things you said in your presentation.

You said that the Canadian Armed Forces was a predominantly male institution and its approach to implementing gender integration and equal opportunity had been to simply absorb women into its ranks by ignoring their differences as much as possible. You said it seemed to make sense, and for the most part, you service women wanted only to be treated the same as men. You concluded by saying that today, however, we knew that the differences and the many intersectoral factors associated with women veterans were key to understanding and meeting their unique needs.

There is an important dichotomy there, that is, the desire for an egalitarian vision in the Canadian Armed Forces and, at the same time, the desire for there to be recognition of the distinctiveness or uniqueness of being a woman.

How do you think these two visions can be reconciled and a balance struck, if that is possible?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

I left the Canadian Armed Forces four years ago now, and we are well aware that there is a change of culture underway. I can't comment on what is happening in the Canadian Armed Forces.

When I said we wanted to be treated like one of the guys, I had just enrolled, in 1982. I remember it very well. That was 40 years ago. There have been big changes since that time. I don't concern myself with what is happening in the Canadian Armed Forces today; my focus is on veterans. I am extremely happy to be here and to see that your committee is examining the experiences of women veterans.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand that you want to stay out of things relating to the Canadian Armed Forces. However, from what you hear when you are in touch with women who have left the CAF, is there a change in the mindset?

[Col (Ret'd) Nishika Jardine]

Research is needed on that specific question, because we don't know.

We observe that service affects women's physical health and to some extent also their mental health in different ways. However, we don't know why. The study we did has just brought this to light now. I think that is the exact question that has to be answered, and I hope there are researchers who will look into it.