Veterans Affairs Committee on April 27th, 2023

[Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

I think Lee-Anne hit it right on the head, in that it starts at transition.

Let's go back. Homelessness is often a result of a loss of community, loss of family. It's in the first two to four years after release from the military that they're most vulnerable. If they're removed, they're far away from their support structure and that makes it even worse. That's why when we talk about transition from CAF to VAC, we have to make it stronger.

People who have suffered psychological injuries from inside the CAF or RCMP are going to have a really tough time during transition. It's going to hurt.

As some people have suggested, why not for that first two or three years, that transition period, allow them to come to VAC, no questions asked? Let's say, “Don't wait until it's a crisis. If you're struggling with something, don't wait for a crisis; come and see us.” As the Senator said, let's keep track of them. Let's not just let them go. It's the transition period that is absolutely key.

[Rebecca Patterson]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I will build on that.

If you think about it, most people who leave the Canadian Armed Forces, men and women, are not homeless or living rough. Some are, but most are not. What is key in that transition period is not expecting only VAC to do all of this, because that is not going to be possible. We have veterans in every corner of this country and internationally, and that's where one of VAC's challenges comes from.

I think within Canada, within the domain we can control, I believe there is a place, whether it is through the justice system or through health care systems, for a global sensitization to what a veteran is. We have obligatory reporting in health care for people who have challenges in terms of suicide, homicide or pedophilia. This is not what I'm referring to, but if we can also sensitize the Canadian public to acknowledge that veterans exist, and particularly women veterans, and ensure they're getting into care and support to begin with or ensure that policing and our justice system are aware, we can build into that at least a point of contact to call, whoever it is, so that these people don't fall through the cracks.

That's especially for women, because they are invisible. If a woman has been experiencing domestic violence, say, or has experienced severe military sexual trauma that has had them hospitalized, people don't know what to do with them: “Well, you're a veteran.” It's like you went to the University of Ottawa—I went there, so I said that—and we forget that this comes from another life.

I think if we could sensitize beyond VAC into our Canadian system, it would be very helpful. If you could make a recommendation like that, I'd be so proud.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

I want to thank the vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Richards, who replaced me.

Now I'd like to invite Ms. Blaney to take the floor for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair. It's good to see you back.

I want to thank all three of you for being here to testify. Thank you for your incredible service. I did a bit of research on all three of you before I came here. I just have to say that it's overwhelming to see the amazing things you've done. I want to recognize all three of you for your incredible service to our country and to humanity as a whole.

Going through this study, I hear two things. One, and you've all said it today, is the word “invisible”. Women are invisible. The other thing I've heard from a lot of veterans is the lost opportunity. If our CAF, our RCMP and our VAC actually served women more meaningfully, the opportunities that would come out of that would be profound. I'm hoping we can identify how women become invisible and how to change that so we can see the opportunity increase on the other side.

I'll ask all of you the first question. Going back to the word “invisible”, I heard clearly that when things are gender-neutral, we just ignore women. Women veterans again and again have told me that when they have a health issue, they're often told that it has nothing to do with their service. However, we also know that no research has been done to actually find out if it is the service. It doesn't seem to be of interest. Often they are put in a position where they have to appeal repeatedly to try to get their issue addressed. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that and on what we could do differently.

Lee-Anne, if I could start with you, I would really appreciate it given your expertise in this subject.

[Lee-Anne Quinn]

Thank you very much.

Regarding invisibility, unfortunately numbers speak volumes. We know that when you compare the number of male veterans with the number of female veterans, the male numbers are much higher. Just in general, it doesn't matter what you're looking at; the greatest number gets the majority. I think that in itself is part of the issue. It's simply the small volume. If you look at the number of homeless female veterans in comparison with the number of male homeless veterans, you soon find out that there are a lot more male veterans than there are female. Obviously, what I think is happening is that we are just ignored or are invisible because of our small numbers.

I don't know how to fix that. I don't have any magic pill to make that better. I do know that the awareness of Veterans Affairs in reference to this invisibleness of the female population needs to be brought to light.

[Karen McCrimmon]

I think that's an excellent question. How do we deal with that?

If you look at the homelessness issue, the big problem for women veterans is that they are invisible because we can't find them. They don't go to the homeless shelters. The homeless shelters are too dangerous for women. What they do, as the senator mentioned, is couch surf. Some of them live rough. We don't see them immediately. That's why they're invisible.

I think this goes back to making sure that VAC tracks these people, especially people who are on a medical release. They should be tracked. They should not rely on them to come back to VAC. VAC should say, “Where are you, and how are you doing?” I think that's one thing that could make a difference.

Again, for me, I think the transition issue is also something.... As Lee-Anne mentioned, she didn't go back to VAC for five years. Me neither. I said, “I'm fine; there's nothing wrong. I'm strong. I can do it.” We don't want to admit that we could use some help. A lot of my veteran friends feel exactly that way. They don't want to admit it.

If there was a way—without having to go through all the paperwork and without having to end up in a crisis—to go back to VAC and say they would like to talk to somebody, let's make it easy for them during that period. Let's make it so it doesn't have to become a crisis.

[Rebecca Patterson]

I'm going to go a bit more macro.

We talk about being invisible, and I can give examples of research. You have to do research on this. The numbers are too statistically small to track, but it's being used to not do anything. We have to move beyond that. This is where you start partnering with other nations to see how they're tracking things—the U.S., for example. That's why we talked about the board. You start there.

If Canada is truly committed to their women veterans—it's all veterans, but I need to talk about women—we will take those statistics, blend them with what we have and start. Even if we overprogram to begin with and we move back afterwards.... If you build it, they will come.

I would suggest that we not accept these statistically insignificant numbers we often get in research, whether it's women suicide in the Canadian Armed Forces or as veterans. If there is a way of building a recommendation into research that says statistically insignificant numbers are not an excuse to do nothing—that has so many negatives, and I'm sorry—we can then look at getting boards together and partnering with other nations so we can at least start somewhere.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

Now let's go to Mr. Sean Casey for five minutes or less, please.

I'm sorry, Mr. Casey, but it will be my friend Fraser Tolmie.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I really like being your friend. Thank you, Chair.

We've faced some difficult subjects while doing this study. One thing I want to address, which came up in a previous study, is the Afghan monument that has not yet been built. It has not been decided upon. I think it's been in the design phase since 2019, and it hasn't been finalized yet.

This is the first conflict in which we've had female soldiers and female combat losses. I would like to get a sense of the witnesses' ideas on recognition and having a monument in the nation's capital for this.

Ms. Quinn, can I ask you this first? Again, I want to thank you for your service. That's important. I'm very proud to be sitting in this room with you and online. I'm proud of your service and what you've done for our nation. Thank you.

[Lee-Anne Quinn]

Thank you very much, sir.

In reference to a monument depicting a female, I would be ecstatic to see a female soldier in any monument—a female soldier with a combat flak jacket on, with a helmet on, with a weapon strapped over their shoulder and with a ponytail. If you cannot distinguish if they're male or female, put the ponytail in there. I think we're severely lacking in that department, across the country.

I was part of a steering committee that established a peacekeeping monument in the city of Peterborough. There were five bids on the monument, five artists. Not one of the artists presented a maquette of the monument with a female in posed position. That was so disappointing to me.

It was a 14-year project, and we ended up choosing a beautiful monument that is neither male nor female but instead has two large pillars with some words of wisdom from Major-General Lewis MacKenzie, as well as some words of citizens from the city of Peterborough.

So yes, it is missing, and yes, I would love to see it, because we deserve it.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Ms. Quinn.

While I have you—and I'm sorry for not addressing the other witnesses here—you mentioned recognition. One of the great things about being in the military is becoming an honorary colonel. You mentioned in your introduction being treated differently as an honorary colonel. Could you expand on that for me, please?

[Lee-Anne Quinn]

Yes. Listen, I was extremely honoured to be asked to be the honorary colonel of the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment. I was the first female in 100 years to hold that position. I entered it and stayed with it for four entire years, giving it my all because, number one, that's what I do, and number two, that's what the regiment deserved and that's what the soldiers deserved.

My huge disappointment came when any of my requests as the honorary colonel were second-guessed, were given a back seat. To that extent, for the unveiling of this peacekeeping monument—and this is one small example—Major-General Lewis MacKenzie, retired of course, our number one peacekeeper in Canada, had agreed to come to the event. I had city members, members of Parliament and peacekeepers from across Canada coming to this unveiling event, along with the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment, who told me they would have six honorary guards to take the salute for Major-General Lewis MacKenzie.

Two days before the unveiling of that monument, I received an email from the captain of the regiment—not even from the commanding officer of that regiment—to tell me there would be no soldiers present to take the salute from Major-General Lewis MacKenzie, period, the end. It was holiday time, and there would not be anyone. It was two days before that event.

I will sit here and tell you that there is no way those comments and that reason ever would have been presented to the male honorary lieutenant-colonel who was filling my boots prior to when I took the position. It would not have been that way, but because it was me, we were going to take it and suck it up, and there would be nothing done in reference to it.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I'm sure that was very difficult for you to share, but I do appreciate it. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Tolmie.

Now let's go to Mr. Sean Casey for five minutes or less.

Please, go ahead.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here and for your service.

I can't help myself. I have to pose a question to my former colleague, Ms. McCrimmon.

The reasons a woman won't go into the Canadian Armed Forces now are pretty darned obvious given all of the recent developments, so my question to you is this. As someone who has served and someone who's been a parliamentary secretary and been in this seat, what advice do you have for government? What advice do you have for us? What advice do you have for the department in terms of the recruitment and retention of people choosing this as a career?

[Karen McCrimmon]

That's an excellent question. As I said in my remarks, women are 50% of the future recruiting pool. If we don't fix this, if we don't make CAF and the RCMP the employers of the 21st century, a place where women can go and serve and feel respected, safe and valued, then we're not going to be able to hire women. In the military, as time goes on, it's about the brain power we're wasting. We're wasting brain power. Brilliant women are having to deal with and put up with a system that's 100 years old. It needs to change, but it takes leadership to change it and the will. We need the will and the acknowledgement that this is what's going on.

It's not just the military or the RCMP. This kind of thing happens in our society as a whole. I think in the military—because we track things, do statistics and follow up on cases when there has been abuse and neglect—we're always targeted first, but I would say that the same thing happens in just about every single workplace in this country. Women are mistreated.

I would say this to the government, to CAF, to VAC and to the RCMP: Lead the way. You know how to lead. You know what needs to be done. Set the example. If the rest of the country looks at CAF and sees that they have this figured out and people want to be part of that organization, then CAF will want the same thing, with the same quality of candidate working for them.

That's what I would say: You know what leadership is and you know what needs to get done. I think there are some tweaks and some advice we could possibly offer in that regard, but choose to be the example of the future. The whole country will be better off because of it.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you.

My next question is for the other two witnesses here, Senator Patterson and Ms. Quinn.

I ask you this question because of your experience with the homeless community and the fact that there was a significant announcement today. It has two funding streams. One is for supports and services, and the other is for capacity building. This capacity building is for funding research on veterans homelessness. The portal opens today and is open for the next eight weeks.

Based on what you've said already, it strikes me that you have people within your network and organizations you know—because you're in this space—who could benefit from this funding, particularly as it relates to the unique challenges of women homeless veterans. This is as much a plea as a question: Please help get the word out there that this funding is available to fill the gap that you've identified.

I'd be happy to hear from either of you on that and your perspectives as to the potential benefit of an investment like this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Ms. Quinn, you can start, but we have only 40 seconds for the answer. Please go ahead.

[Lee-Anne Quinn]

I would simply say that in my position in my clinic, yes, it would be my responsibility to get that message out to the homeless females, because they have no communication ability. You gave the information to me. I will get it to them.

[Rebecca Patterson]

To build on that, you need to put in research money and you need to attract people, or VAC does, to do the research we need, which I talked about a bit earlier. There has to be investment there. You're looking at capability building. You need to build a very strong peer support network that has whatever platform possible.

I know we're running out of time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much.

We have two short turns of two and a half minutes.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for whoever would like to answer it.

We know that women veterans are more likely to be released for medical reasons. The committee recently learned that Veterans Affairs Canada had a team of researchers exclusively examining the situation of women veterans, but they were looking more at the symptoms than the causes of the problems.

Do you think there should be better collaboration between the Canadian Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs Canada so there could be better identification of causes and better treatment of symptoms as a result?

[Rebecca Patterson]

Thank you.

As I said earlier, there has to be an exchange of data.

We need to build that into mandate letters. We need to state this in order for you to do cause and effect. Let's stop creating harmed veterans. Let me be a veteran because I served in an amazing career and have moved forward.

In the absence of appropriate feedback mechanisms, let's put that into mandate letters for National Defence, for Veterans Affairs and, I would suggest, for the RCMP, although I'm not quite as knowledgeable there. I'm going to say that as a first intervention, knowing you have only two minutes.

Lee-Anne, do you have anything? I'll pass it to you.

[Lee-Anne Quinn]

I have nothing else to add. Thank you.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Along the same line, to your knowledge, do Veterans Affairs Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces have different ways of analyzing health problems that are specific to women veterans?