Veterans Affairs Committee on March 1st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Good evening. Welcome to the fifth meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to the motion passed on February 8, 2022, the committee is meeting to consider the desecration of monuments to veterans.

I would like to welcome our colleague Cathay Wagantall, who is now a member of the committee, as well as our colleague Brenda Shanahan, who is acting as an alternate this evening.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. You are aware that the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee.

Today's meeting is also taking place in a webinar format. Webinars are for public committee meetings and are available only to members, their staff and witnesses. Members enter immediately as active participants. All functionalities for active participants remain the same. Staff will be non-active participants and can, therefore, only view the meeting in gallery view.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants of this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted. I would remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

With regard to the list of speakers, the clerk of the committee and I will do our best to maintain the established speaking order for all members, whether they attend the meeting in person or remotely.

I would now like to extend a warm welcome to our witness, Mr. Steven Clark, from the Royal Canadian Legion. Mr. Clark is the national executive director. We will now turn the floor over to him for his opening remarks.

Mr. Clark, you have five minutes to deliver your statement. We will then go into the question and answer period.

You have the floor.

[Steven Clark, National Executive Director, The Royal Canadian Legion]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for the invitation to the Royal Canadian Legion to appear before you today.

I am Steven Clark, national executive director. I am a veteran and I also served for 10 years as the director of Canada's national Remembrance Day ceremony held at the National War Memorial. The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, positioned in front of the memorial, was a millennium project initiated by the Legion, adding to the special significance that this sacred site has to our organization.

The Legion is a large, national organization united around a mission that has remained unchanged for our almost 100 years of existence. It is to support veterans, serve our communities and country, and promote remembrance. The Legion has undertaken numerous remembrance initiatives to bring focus to service and sacrifice, such as the poppy campaign, where upwards of 20 million poppies are distributed annually throughout the country as a visual pledge to never forget. The yearly poster and literary contest has the participation of 100,000 students each year who show what remembrance means to them through their artistic works and literary compositions. The virtual poppy drop is a projection on Centre Block and the Senate of Canada buildings.

Legion commands and branches also organize and conduct remembrance ceremonies at memorials and cenotaphs in communities nationwide. Despite these large-scale and other widespread remembrance efforts, there are those who just do not, or choose not, to understand service and sacrifice.

Memorials and monuments are community gathering places for commemorations. They are a physical presence standing as important symbols of our commitment to honour and remember. They establish a historical link from the present to our military heritage. They are to be revered, but sadly, they are not free from desecration. For example, in 2006, three males were caught urinating on the National War Memorial. At that time there were calls for more security at the site. In 2009, the provincial cenotaph in Fredericton was vandalized. In 2012, the Inukshuk memorial for Afghan veterans, erected at Legion headquarters in Ottawa, was toppled. The individual responsible for desecrating this memorial—which was donated by Richard and Claire Léger, the National Silver Cross Mother for 2005—never owned up to their actions. Just last year in 2021, the memorial wall in Cranbrook, British Columbia, was vandalized.

These are just four examples of disrespect. How society responds to such reprehensible acts is paramount. Some countries have introduced or enacted bills to address the desecration of war memorials, but it is so unfortunate that governments have had to legislate penalties as a deterrent to such inexcusable actions, rather than individuals showing an understanding of respect and the application of common sense and personal decency.

If not corrected, ruinous behaviour has a penchant for repetition. As a society, a government, an organization and individuals, we all have a responsibility to protect the sanctity of memorials and to preserve the memory of the fallen. Memorials are symbols of a grateful nation's collective reminiscence, where we pause to honour, thank and remember them.

With reference to the National War Memorial of late, appropriating the sacred site for use as a backdrop for displays of disobedience, inappropriate messaging or attempts to legitimize or push an alternate agenda beyond one with a purely remembrance focus, or to stand by and idly watch as these things take place, especially by those in a position of civil authority, is simply wrong. We need to do better. Our fallen deserve better.

Mr. Chair, the Legion thanks you and the committee for the opportunity to make this presentation as part of this important study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Clark.

Now let's start with a round of questioning.

I invite the first vice-chair of the committee, Mr. Frank Caputo, to start, for six minutes.

Please, go ahead.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank Mr. Clark for coming. It's indeed a pleasure to see him again. I had one question for Mr. Clark. Actually, before I even do that, I want to thank Mr. Clark for his service, first and foremost, and for appearing.

The criminal law does address this in a fairly recently passed law. It is in relation to a war memorial, under “Mischief”, which is section 430 of the Criminal Code of Canada. I'm not sure if Mr. Clark is aware of that provision.

[Steven Clark]

I am aware of that provision, yes.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

You mentioned in your opening statements that we need to do better and there are problems. You cited a number of examples of reprehensible behaviour that I'm sure everybody on this committee would denounce.

Do you have any opinion, sir, as somebody in your position on behalf of the Legion, as to whether these provisions are adequate or appropriate?

[Steven Clark]

It's an important question, but a difficult one to answer. It should be inherent in everyone that you absolutely don't do these things that we have witnessed of late, yet there has to be some kind of protection afforded to memorials when actions go beyond what they should be.

The act identifies penalties. There could be a monetary penalty, but we have to understand what the value is of the penalties that are put in place. If a monetary penalty was a deterrent to such horrible actions, people would never get a second speeding ticket or parking ticket. Financial penalties are not always the answer. We have to take a look at other ways that we can bring justice to those who commit these acts.

Penalties are needed, unfortunately, but I don't know if it's the full answer.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I respect what you have to say. I'm not sure if you're aware, but the penalty is exactly the same as for impaired driving, for instance, and a lot of people do that more than once. I take your point on that.

When you say there needs to be more, are you talking about a stricter punishment under the code, as in there should be incarceration, or perhaps a different way of dealing with this?

[Steven Clark]

There should be a different way of dealing with it.

Back in 2006, when a gentlemen was caught urinating on the National War Memorial, he didn't receive a financial penalty for his infraction. However, there was a day of restorative justice. He came to Legion headquarters. He spoke with veterans. He learned about the importance of remembrance. He spent time. That, I think, had a much greater impact on him and his future actions than if he had paid a fine of a thousand dollars.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I take your point, sir.

It's interesting that what you described as restorative justice or alternative dispute resolution is actually a step below a criminal charge. I don't know about the jurisdiction in Ontario, but in British Columbia, any prosecutor has the discretion to do that. It's an interesting thought on that. I respect exactly what you said there.

When we look at these things, there has to be a balance of access and protection. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Steven Clark]

That is a very important question and you hit it right on the head. We have to make sure that these memorials are protected, but we cannot be so restrictive that we prevent public access to them. How do you accomplish that? The Legion and I would not want to see anything permanent in place that would impede an individual's want, need or desire to pay their personal respects, because how you remember someone is a very personal expression. However, at the same time, you have to make sure that the memorials are protected.

Perhaps as a first step, we need to focus on signage. There is currently a sign in front of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, acknowledging, “Here lie the remains of Canada's unknown soldier” and asking people to “Please treat this grave with respect”. That's not always the case and it's not in an obvious place, but the intent was to not make it obvious. Maybe we need to do a better job of where we position certain things.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I take your point on that. At the end of the day, we don't necessarily want to draw attention. The attention should be on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, not deterring the group of people, big or small as it may be, who really don't recognize the sanctity of that space. Does that make sense?

[Steven Clark]

Absolutely, yes.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, Chair. I think I'm probably coming up to my time here and I don't want to run over.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Exactly. Thank you, Mr. Caputo.

Now, for six minutes, let's go to Mrs. Rechie Valdez.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Good evening, colleagues and Mr. Chair.

I just want to take a moment and thank you, also, Mr. Clark, for your sacrifice to serve our country, and just for being here as a valuable witness to all of us on this important study.

While we are here in committee we just need to acknowledge that there is a war taking place on the other side of the world. President Putin's war in Ukraine is a war on freedom, on democracy and on the rights of Ukrainians and all people. We continue to stand with Ukraine, its people and the Ukrainian Canadian community here in Canada.

Mr. Clark, I agree with your opening remarks. As a society and as an individual we all have a responsibility to protect the sanctity of memorials and to preserve the memory of the fallen. The reason this motion was put forward was so that we do our part as a committee so that the disrespectful behaviour is not repeated.

Mr. Clark, can you describe what you feel when our memorials and monuments are desecrated, and particularly the ones in the most recent example that you saw last month?

[Steven Clark]

There are feelings of condemnation, anger, disgust and bewilderment that people would not understand what these memorials stand for.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

Our soldiers and veterans like you risked their lives and fought for our freedom, and these are freedoms that we should all be very grateful that we have today. I know I am very appreciative of that.

The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, as you mentioned, was a special project. In your remarks you said that it was initiated by the Legion. What comments do you have for the individual who was captured in the videos that we've seen, standing on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and screaming the word “freedom”?

[Steven Clark]

It's interesting when you talk about freedom, especially with what we see in other parts of the world right now, and how ironic it is that freedom could be misinterpreted in the way that it was.

It is unfortunate, however, that the individual who was dancing on the tomb was fully aware of the sanctity of that site, what the site stood for and what the tomb stood for, because the military officer who spoke to that group just prior to her taking this action explained that. As soon as he turned to leave, she jumped on the tomb and did what she did. That makes it even that much more horrible, because she fully understood what she was doing and acted in defiance.

I have to shake my head sometimes at the interpretation or the definition that people have of “freedom”. The freedom to dance atop a tomb is not one of those.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Clark. I agree with you there.

In an attempt to secure the monuments, there were barricades put up and they were bolted. Unfortunately, the Ottawa protesters took them down. What can you say about these actions?

[Steven Clark]

The Legion did not agree with those barricades being taken down, but it was interesting. When we put out that statement on February 12, the response that we had back was split. Half of the people we heard from supported the Legion's position of not taking those barricades down because we did need to make sure that the site remained safe. However, the other half responded with extreme negativity and hatred to the point of threatening Legion headquarters' social media team. We were called woke anti-veteran extremists who were pushing the propaganda of the mainstream media and spewing prime ministerial talking points. It was unbelievable the response that we received.

Regardless, we stand on our position that the intent of those barricades was not to be permanent. It was a temporary safeguarding measure, and it was important to be respected.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

The Department of Public Works and Government Services, similar to what you're saying, mentioned that delicate balance between providing free access to monuments while protecting them during protests.

Can you provide your input on the choice that we have between access versus protecting them?

[Steven Clark]

It comes down to priority. The priority at the time was making sure the memorial was safe so that in the future, in the very near future, we would all have free access to be able to pay our respects in the way that we would personally choose to.

As a temporary measure, it was important, and it should have been respected. We were fully supportive of that barricade in a temporary capacity, but not in a permanent capacity.

[Rechie Valdez, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

In your opinion, what can be done further to protect our memorials and monuments?

I do like the idea that you brought up before as far as how we could give penalties to those who have disrespectful behaviour, but is there any other idea you can share with us today?

[Steven Clark]

A lot of it comes down to education and awareness. We have to do a better job of educating. It starts with youth and making sure that the public is aware. In a perfect world, there would be a federal department that would look after the curriculum in schools across the country, but that's not the case. It's all provincially directed, so there is no standardization of what is taught through the school system. Ideally we would love to have greater emphasis on history. Legion branches, Legion members focus on that during the remembrance period every year. I'd like to see something grander and more standardized across the country, but that's a pipe dream.