Veterans Affairs Committee on May 8th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 51 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, October 3, 2022, the committee is resuming its study on the experience of women veterans.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Some of the MPs are attending the meeting via the Zoom application.

To keep the meeting running smoothly, all comments should be addressed through the chair. I am also informing the witnesses and members of the committee that in accordance with our routine motion all witnesses have completed the required connection tests.

As the study we are conducting is on the experience of women veterans, before we welcome our witnesses, I would like to provide this trigger warning. We may be discussing experiences related to general health and mental health. This may be triggering to viewers, members, or staff with similar experiences. If you feel distressed or need help, please advise the clerk.

Now I would like to welcome our witnesses. As an individual, we have Dawn McIlmoyle, sailor 3rd class and registered nurse. From The Pepper Pod, we have Lieutenant-Colonel Sandra Perron, chief executive officer. From the Royal Canadian Legion, we have Carolyn Hughes, director of veterans services, national headquarters. Finally, from Women Warriors' Healing Garden, we have Dr. Elaine Waddington Lamont, mental health director.

Before giving the floor to the witnesses, I'd like to remind the committee members that we decided we would move our study to somewhere other than Parliament Hill so that we could meet with women veterans from elsewhere. In order to do so, we need to prepare a detailed budget. It should be adopted in time for May 19.

Are the committee members in agreement to authorize a team consisting of the analyst, the clerk, and the chair of the committee to prepare the travel budget and to submit it to you with several options, on Monday, May 15? Are there any objections?

Mr. Richards, you have the floor.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Mr. Chair, I understood that we would be doing this near the end of the meeting. I would suggest that we do that.

I have a few questions, and I think with votes coming, we should be hearing from the witnesses. Let's do it at the end, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

That's no problem. I know that we have votes at 4:30, so I will manage that.

If there are no other interventions, I would like to invite Ms. McIlmoyle to speak.

The floor is yours for five minutes or less for your opening statement. Please go ahead.

[Dawn McIlmoyle, Sailor 3rd Class, Registered Nurse, As an Individual]

Thank you.

I want to say, before I read this, that it is not intended to bash any organizations. It is just my personal experience. Thank you for the opportunity.

I first applied for a pension in 1996, only to be denied. My first appeal was also denied. Shortly before I appeared on the cover of Maclean's, 25 years ago this month, I was awarded a small partial pension and told it was because my sexual assault was not service-related, nor was I on duty. It was, apparently, service-related enough for the military to charge me. The issue was rectified after the class action lawsuit, and I was finally given a full pension. However, the onus was on me to write a letter requesting that my file be reopened due to the new guidelines.

I struggled to raise two children alone while working full time, and I obtained my Bachelor of Science in nursing from Trent University before Veterans Affairs ever had a rehab program. For six years, I was kept on the rehab program despite mental breakdown after mental breakdown and suicide attempts. Treatment was hard because, as much as I wanted to get better, as a mother, my children were my priority, not me. My two sons got to witness the constant instability of me, their mom. They were always worried about whether I was going to have a good day or bad day.

I'm doing my best to heal for my granddaughter and to be the example. However, I am getting to an age where she and I like to joke that I don't bounce anymore; I break. Recently, I broke my wrist while roller skating with her, and I was left with the realization that I needed more assistance than usual.

My youngest son lives in another province and my oldest son is an addict. I have been working through my own guilt and blame surrounding the situation, and I'm left with a feeling of helplessness. Even if he wanted help, I could not afford to send him to a treatment centre. I'm not sure how many are equipped for the intergenerational trauma handed down to veterans' children.

Throughout my dealings with Veterans Affairs, I have had good case managers and bad. For 20 years, I lived in a town with a VAC office yet never knew that another veteran lived there, other than the elderly ones I encountered during my nursing career. When I finally met another veteran my age and like-minded veterans, I started to come out of the shell I had put myself in after the trauma of the military, the backlash and the lack of action taken after the 1998 Maclean's articles.

I have had a case manager tell me I was mentally unstable and belonged in an institution while I was in the process of leaving my abusive ex-husband. I have been told I was asking for too much when needing assistance with my nutrition grant. I have had doctors refuse to fill out pension paperwork because Veterans Affairs sent them my whole 492-page file. I used my one-time assistance rule for emergency funding to get my oldest son assistance with his difficulties as a child. While seeking safety and running for my life from my ex-husband, I was hit with the Legion's one-time-only policy and told by a lady from provincial command that I'd made my own choices so I had to learn to live with them.

At the Legion where I lived in 2018, the bartender told me they only help veterans there, so what did I expect? I was asking for the service officer. The service officer then proceeded to tell me to shop around and find another Legion; I was too much.

I have seen many double standards, absurd denials and blaming of other situations, so there is no accountability. I have seen good people give up in defeat because they can't go another round with Veterans Affairs, an institution in charge of veterans that veterans are afraid of or just can't be bothered to deal with anymore.

If I were to, perhaps, lose my sight or a limb, I would no longer be able to attend appointments or get-togethers to obtain the social stimulation a person needs and often finds many barriers to. I have thought of many ideas and solutions for barriers present for women veterans that I couldn't possibly articulate in these five minutes. If the military is serious about recruiting more women, Veterans Affairs has to start understanding that there are different needs for women, especially if a woman was abused and has isolated herself for any period of time.

In closing, healing is found in many different forms, not just in conventional ways. Veterans Affairs needs to realize this is an individual process and that some people don't fit the boxes they have created for them. Sometimes, VAC rigidness and insurance-like attitudes are not what is required. Being accepting and having a listening ear go a long way.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Lieutenant-Colonel Perron, you have the floor for no more than five minutes.

[Lieutenant-Colonel Sandra Perron, Chief Executive Officer, The Pepper Pod]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I am honorary Lieutenant-Colonel Sandra Perron, the founder and CEO of Pepper Pod, a healing centre for women veterans in the territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin people in Chelsea, Quebec. I too am a veteran, having served my country for 19 years in the Canadian Armed Forces, first as a logistics officer and then in the infantry with the Royal 22e Régiment.

I am also the best-selling author of Out Standing in the Field, a memoir about my time in the service.

“Pepper potting” is a military manoeuvre designed to cover one's buddy as the fire team advances on the enemy. That's what we do at The Pepper Pod, a retreat centre for women veterans. We cover each other in the advances of our lives. More than 260 women veterans and soon-to-be veterans from across the country—from Comox to Halifax and everywhere in between—have now completed a retreat with our organization. This is made possible because of the incredible support we have received from VAC. We have a 99.8% satisfaction rate, and we currently have 189 women on a waiting list to do our retreats.

I would like to share four recurring themes we hear on our retreats without compromising the confidentiality of our participants.

First of all, there is exponentially more sexual abuse than you know about. On average, more than 50% of the women we graduate have been raped at some point in their life, some of them by fathers, grandfathers, brothers, uncles or partners. Often, as youths, they want to escape the family abuse, and the military is a great option for them to leave an abusive family. Then they suffer a similar fate, and fewer than 5% of the women we see at our lifeshops report it. The consequences of their reporting it are too high.

Now, it may be too early to tell, but in my opinion, outsourcing the criminal investigation and prosecution of sexual misconduct to civilian authorities is adding another layer of mistrust. This is a very complex issue, so I'll leave it for now.

I also hear that more and more women are saying they've had champions, that men go up to them during their careers to say, “I'm a safe space for you. If you ever need my help, you knock on my door.”

The second theme is women's bodies. How is it that I have had 33 cohorts sit around a table and consistently be surprised that some of the changes their bodies are going through, mostly because of menopause, are normal? Apart from the hot flashes and lack of sleep, women lack knowledge about their own bodies. These veteran women are being diagnosed with complex anxiety and panic disorders and PTSD when some of them—not all of them but some of them—are simply having very normal reactions to changes in hormones. As an organization that was built by men for men, we need to learn more about women's bodies so that our young, 25-year-old platoon commanders can be better leaders to the young mother who needs a fridge to store her breast milk or the perimenopausal warrant officer who isn't getting enough sleep.

The third theme is that some women are being physically and mentally abused by husbands with PTSD, and they are being told that their responsibility as spouses is to stick it out because their husbands served their country.

Finally, women in the CAF are still trying to do it all—to be mothers, employees, soldiers, sailors, aviators and caregivers. Every single father needs to take more than two weeks of parental leave. New legislation should be considered to have that parental leave be more flexible to allow that time to be broken up so they can navigate operations, deployments and exercises.

On March 27, The Pepper Pod invited the CDS, the VCDS and the top 20 leaders of the CAF to discuss what we've learned from the 260-plus women going through our programs. Every single one of them showed up. Commanders of the army, the air force and the navy; the chief military personnel; the Canadian Forces intelligence general; and all their chiefs engaged and committed to taking actions upstream so that the next generation of women won't have to endure some of the challenges faced by our generation.

I'll end with a final comment. We are, in French, “vétéranes”, and not “femmes vétérans” or “femmes vétéranes”. We are “anciennes combattantes”, and not “femmes anciens combattants” or “femmes anciennes combattantes”. It's the same as the female version for nurses, policemen or firemen, who are in French called “infirmières, policières, pompières”. The fact that we still don't know how to refer to ourselves in 2023 shows that we still have a long way to go.

Thank you very much for the important work you are doing.

Thank you for the important work you do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mrs. Perron.

Now I'd like to invite Mrs. Carolyn Hughes from the Legion to speak for five minutes or less, please.

[Carolyn Hughes, Director, Veterans Services, National Headquarters, The Royal Canadian Legion]

Honourable Chair and members of the parliamentary Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, it is a pleasure to appear before you in person on behalf of our 250,000 members and their families. I thank you for this opportunity to speak with you again.

The Legion is the largest veterans organization. I'm the director of veterans services at the national headquarters. I've been assisting many veterans—including serving members and those who have retired—and their families for about 16 years in my role with the Legion and prior to leaving service.

Since 1926, our professional government security-cleared command service officers have provided free assistance with disability claims to Veterans Affairs and appeals to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board for thousands of veterans, their families and survivors each year.

I began working at the Legion in January 2011. Since that time, I have seen an increase in the number of women veterans of the Canadian Armed Forces and the RCMP applying for disability benefits. In recent years, there has been a dramatic rise in claims and appeals for those who have experienced sexual trauma, but we are also seeing more women veterans come forward with other conditions, such as musculoskeletal and mental health injuries, sexual dysfunction and many others.

Women have been serving in all military occupations with the exception of submarines since 1989. They wanted to be treated equally and to demonstrate that they could perform all the required occupational tasks of their trade and physical fitness activities of their male comrades-in-arms. They have done so proudly and with honour. However, in a largely male-dominant institution, there has been very little consideration of the physical, mental or other effects on women and their overall short- and long-term health care. Military health care, based on the average male soldier, has allowed and produced research gaps and systemic biases for many years. Physical and mental health injuries are still being caused today by equipment designed for men, and have resulted in a lower quality of life for women.

One previous witness asked, “Where is the feedback loop inside VAC for decisions that have been overturned by the VRAB?” Our command service officers help with many entitlement reviews and appeals to the board each year and are extremely successful in having VAC decisions overturned for both men and women. Why is VAC denying disability benefits that will only be later approved by the board? Why are they not on the same page, especially with the policies and procedures that are in place? The backlog of disability decisions is one gross injustice. The other part to this is the additional wait time, as they now have to fight for benefits at the next level.

We see that many favourable claims for the average male are being denied for women simply because they may not have served in a combat arms occupation, as one example. No consideration is being provided by VAC for the equipment that does not fit, or for the fact that women may weigh less, have a smaller stature and have perhaps served their entire career posted to physically active bases and units, no matter what the occupation is. One size fits all may be equal, but is it equitable? We ask VAC to adjudicate more fairly in consideration of what happened in their service, the equipment they used, where they served and how the armed forces and the RCMP take or took care of the occupational health and well-being of their women members.

VAC must also better collaborate with the CAF for the benefits and services that women veterans will require as they transition from service and as they age. Policies and research, such as the entitlement eligibility guidelines and the table of disabilities, must be reviewed and updated without delay to better identify the damages to women's physical and mental health. Benefits and programs must be funded appropriately to achieve the desired equitable outcomes.

Finally, although more research is necessary, let's not allow for any further delay. The Canadian government, the CAF and VAC have an opportunity right now to demonstrate leadership by strategically planning on how best to enable and optimize the well-being of women veterans. For those who serve and who have served honourably and proudly, this is the least we can do.

Chairman, thank you for the opportunity to make this presentation. I'm happy to take any questions at a later time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hughes.

Dr. Waddington Lamont, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Dr. Elaine Waddington Lamont, Mental Health Director, Women Warriors’ Healing Garden]

Thank you, honourable Chair and committee members. It's a pleasure to speak to you today.

The theme of this is differences in the experiences of women soldiers and veterans. I thought I would begin with a story that can illustrate one of the differences, perhaps more on the trivial side rather than the profound side, as we've already heard some of those differences today.

I am the mental health director of the Women Warriors' Healing Garden. We were founded in about 2017 by me and my partner. I am a civilian, so I cannot speak to experiences first-hand. I can only relay the experiences that have been shared with me and that have been my privilege to listen to. I feel comfortable sharing the experiences of my co-founder, Erin Kinsey.

In about 2017, it was becoming clear that Erin was no longer okay. She had served with the United States Air Force in the late eighties, early nineties, and was injured as a result of her service there. However, it was not immediately apparent to her that this was the case. When she released from the military, she was still in her twenties and she felt fine. They checked her teeth and checked her general health and said, “You're fine.” Then off she went and she came to Canada, went to university, got a Ph.D., got married and got divorced. She did all of those things.

However, when she came to Ottawa in about 2012, it was becoming clear that maybe something was not quite right. By maybe 2015 or so, it was really clear that not everything was okay. Eventually, she was diagnosed with PTSD, and we began the journey of trying to have that injury recognized by Veterans Affairs in the United States. Because she was here in Canada, I think it's fair to say she slipped through every crack that existed. Fortunately, she was eventually connected with a pension and was declared 100% disabled by Veterans Affairs in the U.S.

While she was looking for treatment, she looked around at some of the services that might be available to her. One of the things she found through a friend was an amazing organization that I'll brag about just for a moment—it's not my own—called Project Healing Waters. Their mandate is to get veterans into places where they can do fly fishing. It is an amazing organization where no matter a person's ability or disability, they're able to be transported to a place where they can engage in that activity. This was so profoundly healing for Erin's friend. He described the stream as his church.

However, Erin didn't want to be up to her waist in freezing cold water watching little flies go around while praying that someday a fish might actually strike her line. That was not her jam, so we decided together that we would start a garden because a garden was a place she felt healed. Being with animals was a place she felt healed. There were, even just as recently as 2017, very few services available for women veterans.

We started with a few tools and a small garden plot, and over the past five years we've grown into a couple of acres. We have animals we're able to use for equine-assisted therapy, we have horticulture therapy, we have beekeeping and we have art therapy, both in person and virtually. Of course, we've had to adapt with the pandemic, as everyone has. However, I think the difference in what was available, which was really aimed at the interests of men, was partly about being under-represented, so we like to say that we serve those who are under-represented—women and members of the 2SLGBTQ community.

This is only a small difference. You've heard some of the larger ones with some of the statistics around sexual trauma. Stats Canada estimates that about 25% of women were sexually assaulted as a result of their military service. As Sandra has attested to, that number is probably a vast underestimate. We've heard about some of the physical differences due to things like ill-fitting uniforms, rucksacks and boots.

Perhaps what we have not yet heard about is the difference in rates of PTSD. Women are much more likely to become disabled with PTSD as a result of their service. There's a lot of disagreement in the literature about why exactly this is. It's complex, but it's fair to say that it is probably related to physiological differences, differences in the brain and differences in hormones, but also differences in experiences, including sexual trauma related to combat, sociological differences, harassment and structural differences.

We know that women are more likely to get PTSD. Unfortunately, we are not yet helping them heal as well as we should be. In a study that was done a few years ago, in 1998, the rate of recovery from PTSD for men after two years was about 50%. After five years, essentially 100% of men in this particular study had recovered. In contrast, after five years, only 50% of women had recovered, and after 10 years, when the study ended, only about 55% of women had recovered.

I don't think we know yet why this is exactly, but it is clear that women are different and they are being ill-served by the services and treatments we currently have available. For this reason, we try to offer an environment where people can offer each other peer support and therapeutic activities, in the hope that this may help in a way that is a bit different from what is being done in other places.

We sincerely hope we are able to make a difference in the lives of women. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'd like to thank the witnesses for their testimony.

I'd also like to thank the three among you who served their country.

At around a quarter to five, if you need to stop for five minutes, do not hesitate to let me know.

A few moments ago in her address, Lieutenant-Colonel Perron alluded to the French title for the study we are conducting, “Expériences vécues par les femmes vétérans”. I must advise you that we held discussions at this committee to find the most accurate possible title for this study. We did not want women and men to be grouped together. Often, when we speak of veterans, it's about men. As we were told that we had to make the distinction in French, even though the problem did not occur in English, we decided to use the expression “femmes vétérans” to make it clear whom we were talking about. It's also one of the first times that we have been conducting such a study to investigate the experiences of women. That's why the committee chose the title “Expériences vécues par les femmes vétérans”.

Ms. Perron, you look like you want to say something. I will therefore give you the floor before we move on to the questions.

[LCol Sandra Perron]

I told you in my comments how I felt about this. It's time for us to move into 2023 and for us as women to have our own titles in French, just as it's the case for ranks in the Canadian Armed Forces, which were changed to reflect our gender, whether for sergeants, adjutants or lieutenant colonels. We need to do the same thing for the word “vétérane”. I know that there is no entry for it in the Petit Robert dictionary, but there should be. We have to start somewhere.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You're absolutely right. Besides which, here, we no longer say “ombudsman” but just “ombuds”.

On that note, we'll move on to the round of questions. The members will each have six minutes to ask the witnesses questions.

I would ask members to tell us to whom they are addressing their questions.

In the first round, I'm going to start with Mrs. Cathay Wagantall for six minutes, please.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here and for presenting such a myriad of perspectives on how to care successfully for women in the military.

I would like to start, first of all, with Dawn. Can I call you Dawn?

[Dawn McIlmoyle]

Yes.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

That's wonderful.

Hearing your story has just proved again the impact on veterans of sanctuary trauma. It's the impact of being mistreated and misrepresented by those who should be giving you the greatest care upon returning from service, or, in your case, in the midst of military service with your sexual trauma and domestic violence circumstances. You are a woman of great strength. It's an honour to have you here today.

Could you speak to us a bit more about the dynamics of the term “sanctuary trauma” and what it has done to impact your life?

[Dawn McIlmoyle]

Not only have I been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, but I have agoraphobia. I go through periods where I'm at home and want to leave so badly, but I'm afraid of what's going to happen as soon as I walk out that door. There are times when for weeks the only interaction I have is with the lady at the drive-through window. That's not in person. I love my dog to death, but she doesn't talk back. Sometimes it's just nice to have a person, but when you don't have anyone, it gets really difficult. I isolate myself because I can't—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Is it a lack of trust?

[Dawn McIlmoyle]

Yes, and I can't predict other people's behaviour. I don't want to get hurt again. I say that bad decisions made me smart, so I know what I don't want now.

It's easier to just stay at home alone and not go out, but then I miss so many opportunities. I could meet people. I could do things, but sometimes the fear is too much. I do my best, but....

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you.

You commented that with your PTSD you find it very difficult to work. However, you're advocating on behalf of survivors of abuse. You talk especially about abuse of power. You're working.

When you talk about abuse of power, do you see that just within the military, or is it the abuse of power that happens when VAC does the same type of thing and does not meet your needs? Is that part of that same perspective?

[Dawn McIlmoyle]

I have experienced abuse of power in almost every system I have encountered since I got out of the military: police systems, health care systems, you name it. There's abuse of power everywhere.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

You talked about intergenerational trauma. There's nothing worse than seeing.... Well, our kids have our genes, first of all. On top of that, to end up with mental and physical health issues because of the circumstances raises another level of a sense of guilt, especially for moms, quite honestly.

Can you talk about the dynamics of VAC? Is intergenerational trauma a priority to them, or is that also impacted by sanctuary trauma?

[Dawn McIlmoyle]

I think they're impacted by it greatly. It's hard. My youngest son, even though he's doing really well, still has anger issues and stuff like that. It's hard to be honest about what's going on because he doesn't want to be honest about what went on at home. He had a sick mom. He was 15 years old and had to drive me to the hospital because I tried to kill myself. He knew what he was doing was illegal, but he had to get me there. No 15-year-old should ever have to deal with that.

If he ever heard this, he'd probably be very mad, but it's the truth. They're things he's had to deal with. It would be very hard for him to be honest about them in a group with just regular people.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

They lost the opportunity to just be kids, be children.

[Dawn McIlmoyle]

Yes.