Veterans Affairs Committee on May 8th, 2023

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

We're on Veterans Affairs, so we're here trying to find ways to improve the organization. We're mostly dealing with people who have left the military. Basically, they see them and they're gone quickly and move on. Really, we're actually the ones doing the exit strategy here, it seems like. We deal with what happened or transpired before this moment in time.

I'm just wondering about that. When you look at some of the situations here and see how many women in the military have been assaulted or abused, the numbers are astonishing. Really, in order to improve Veterans Affairs, we need to look at the time of service and the issues that come up there. Is there no input during the period of time when these issues are coming up?

Almost half the people are having problems, it sounds like, or issues. Are the other half speaking up for them? Why is that number so high and nobody is saying anything? Why is this not being improved upon?

The numbers are astronomical, as you're telling me, and I would think there would be other women in the military who would speak up who haven't had that extent.... I'm wondering why that might be.

Maybe Dawn might have a better idea, because you would think they'd be as frustrated as I am.

[Dawn McIlmoyle]

I know a lot of women who don't even acknowledge they're veterans because they don't want to have to say that the reason they got out was they were sexually assaulted. They would rather hide their veteran identity and just leave that part of their life in the past.

They don't even want to deal with Veterans Affairs because then they have to open those wounds too. A lot of women can actually hold their stuff together while they're raising their children, if they happen to have children, but as soon as those children are gone and they start to be alone, their issues start popping up because they're not keeping busy with their children. Sometimes they don't realize they're sick until they are 45 or 50. They've been so preoccupied with taking the kids here or taking the kids there and school this and school that. As soon as there is that empty nest syndrome, a whole new can of worms gets opened.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Do I have any more time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes, a bit.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Okay.

Earlier it was stated that if there were any injuries or things that happened during your career with the CAF, it's really difficult to put those back into Veterans Affairs. Is that not something we should have to do? Shouldn't recognizing those symptoms or things that were happening just be mandatory?

[LCol Sandra Perron]

I'm sorry, but I don't know who your question is for.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I guess it's for all of you, because everyone deals with different people coming out of the military who have issues, whether they are with mental health or whatever they may be. There are different criteria. They should just be recognized from one to the next to make it simpler, I would think. Whatever the injury is, it should fall into the next category of Veterans Affairs.

[LCol Sandra Perron]

If an injury follows you to Veterans Affairs, then absolutely that's where it should be dealt with. As Dawn said, sometimes you don't know that you've been injured. Sometimes you don't speak up when you have been raped or abused because the consequences are often worse than the act itself, believe it or not. I can't tell you the number of women who say they tried to report it and the backlash was strong, or they were removed from their unit as if they were the problem. They are not reporting it. It's not seen. It's covert.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Is that current too? Do you know?

[LCol Sandra Perron]

Yes, absolutely it's current. It's happening now.

[Terry Dowdall, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

That's terrible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Dowdall.

Now let's go to Mr. Sean Casey for five minutes, please.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start with Dr. Waddington Lamont.

I'd like to hear a bit more about the Women Warriors' Healing Garden. I understand that you have been a recipient of funding from Veterans Affairs under the veteran and family well-being fund. Could you tell us a bit about what that money will go toward and its relevance in terms of your overall operation, please?

[Dr. Elaine Waddington Lamont]

Yes, we have been the recipient of a grant, as you said. We received $50,000 per year over five years. To break down how that is spent, we have one part-time employee, which takes roughly half the budget, and then the rest goes towards programming.

Our programming includes things like beekeeping. It's perhaps a little-known fact, but beekeeping has been a form of occupational therapy since World War I. In fact, Canadian veterans after the First World War were doing beekeeping as a second career after the military. It has been widely used in the United States as a form of occupational therapy. That's one program we've done. We find that the people who participate in that program find it very rewarding.

In terms of other programs we have, I've mentioned that we have equines. We are moving into equine-assisted therapy. I think a comment was made earlier about service dogs and the power of animals in healing. I think sometimes it is underappreciated how programs like animal-assisted therapy can be useful, because it's a difficult type of program to document efficacy beyond saying, “This helped me” and “I filled out this survey that shows I feel less isolated now.”

Unfortunately, a lot of research follows the model of pharmaceutical research, with a sort of double-blind, placebo-controlled study. That works very well in pharmaceutical studies where you have a placebo that is identical to the drug being given and people don't really know what group they're in. It's much harder to have an appropriate placebo for someone who is in an equine-assisted therapy program because you know if you are in an equine-assisted therapy program.

Going back to some of the questions around research that have been asked, I think it would be extremely valuable to do research and to bring in statistical tools that allow for understanding what's going on, in spite of some of the messiness of the research, in spite of the fact that women and 2SLGBTQ veterans are in the minority and therefore their numbers might be low and in spite of the fact that some of the things people find to be rewarding and healing are difficult to measure and especially difficult to measure in comparison to some kind of control.

We are involved in that kind of research as much as we are able to be, and I think we would very much like to see more of that kind of work being done. We would love to be able to document what we think are effective programs, like gardening and working with animals.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I want to stay on the research theme because you gave some pretty troubling statistics about the difference in PTSD between men and women, if I understood you correctly. The incidence of PTSD is about the same in male and female veterans, but males tend to heal and females don't.

[Dr. Elaine Waddington Lamont]

It's a little higher in women, so—

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Okay. Maybe you could repeat it. I would be interested in what research is available or where the opportunities are to do a deeper dive on the reasons for this.

[Dr. Elaine Waddington Lamont]

The rate of PTSD in women is higher. I don't have the numbers as to how much higher in front of me, but I've seen estimates ranging from about 50% higher to 10% higher, so there's some difference in the literature. However, it's fairly consistent that women are more likely to get PTSD.

There's a lot of debate in the literature as to why that might be and whether it is due to different traumatic experiences. One of the theories I've seen is that women are more likely to be exposed to both combat-related trauma and trauma related to sexual harassment or sexual misconduct, and perhaps that explains it, but I think it's fair to say that it may be more complicated than that and we just don't have the information.

What research I have seen is mainly coming from Veterans Affairs in the United States. There is some excellent research being done there. We have smaller numbers, but I think we would benefit from doing the same kind of research being done in the United States.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Casey.

Mr. Luc Desilets has the floor now for two and a half minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Perron, you alluded to the difference in the amount of time it takes for women and men to receive a response. For example, on December 31 last year, a woman had to wait two weeks longer than a man to get a reply. For francophones, it took three weeks more than for anglophones. So I think it's clear that the circumstances are less than ideal for a francophone woman.

The situation now is not quite as bad as it was in the past, when it could take 20 to 30 weeks. Do you have any suggestions to make about why it takes longer for francophones?

[LCol Sandra Perron]

To begin with, I'm surprised to hear that it doesn't take even longer. Where I am, I've been told that it takes much longer to get a response for francophones than for anglophones.

To return to claims reported by women to Veterans Affairs Canada, because that's what we're here to talk about today, agents are not as familiar with pelvis and back problems and it's more complicated for women to substantiate them.

I'm interested in knowing whether women have more trouble than men in having their claims accepted and receiving positive responses.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Similarly, are there more obstetricians and gynecologists in the Canadian Armed Forces now than there used to be five, six or seven years ago?

[LCol Sandra Perron]

I've been told that two have just been hired.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Does that mean there are more?

[LCol Sandra Perron]

I didn't think there were any before. I believe that once pregnant, women had permission to receive care outside the forces medical system. Now, we're beginning to get some within the armed forces.

You'd have to ask Major-General Lise Bourgon. She could tell you.