Veterans Affairs Committee on June 5th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

We'll start the meeting.

Welcome to meeting number 55 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Today, we are continuing our study on the experience of women veterans.

We have three witnesses with us today. I'll introduce them in just a few moments, and they'll all get an opportunity to share with us their opening remarks.

Before we get started, I will let people know, as we have in the past during this study—

Mr. Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chair, since we started the meeting much later than expected, what time do you expect to finish? I have to leave at 5:45 p.m. to give a speech in the House.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

We will have to end the meeting at 5:30 p.m. because one of the witnesses also has to leave at that time.

We will be dealing today with some topics that are difficult for our witnesses to share and I know will be difficult for some to hear as well, especially those who may have had similar experiences. I want to let everyone know, our witnesses and anyone else with us today, that we have assistance that is available if you're finding that you need it. Please ask our clerk, and they can make sure that those resources are made available to you. That's a very important thing I think everyone needs to know.

I wanted to make sure that was clear up front. We will get into our meeting, because we have only just a little over an hour and a half at this point because of the late start with votes.

Two of our witnesses are online. I will start with our witness who's here in person. We'll give them each five minutes to give an opening remark, but given that they are providing very personal testimony in some cases, I'm going to be fairly lenient.

Please don't take too much advantage of that time, but I will of course give you the opportunity, because it's important that we make sure that is available to you when you are sharing with us something that is deeply personal and has had big impacts on you.

With that, I will turn to our witnesses. I will introduce all three of them first, and then I'll have them all give their opening remarks.

We have here with us in person Master Corporal Jacqueline Wojcichowsky.

Online, we have retired sergeant Kathleen Mary Ryan and retired major Joanne Seviour.

We will give them each their opportunity for opening remarks.

Apparently, the preference of the committee is to start with those on video conference, so we will start with retired sergeant Kathleen Mary Ryan.

The floor is yours. Just open your microphone, and you can provide some opening remarks to us now.

[Kathleen Mary Ryan, Sergeant (Retired), As an Individual]

Thank you very much for inviting me to partake in this committee.

The big question is, why are we here?

Fifty years ago I marched on Parliament Hill for women's rights. I then joined the Canadian Armed Forces, believing, foolishly, that the government was actually going to do what it said.

Here I am, 50 years later, in a committee meeting where we're discussing women's rights in the Canadian Armed Forces.

I won't take up too much time out of the five minutes. There is a lot more to be said.

I was in the military for 40 years. That could take up four of these meetings.

It starts with change, and it starts with understanding. It starts with both genders coming to the table and understanding what the other expects. I think that's where we have to look at starting.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you very much, Ms. Ryan.

Now we will turn to retired major Joanne Seviour for five minutes or thereabouts, for her opening remarks.

Just open your microphone, and the floor is yours.

[Joanne Seviour, Major (Retired), As an Individual]

Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you to the committee for your interest in this issue and for giving me an opportunity to express myself.

Like Kathleen, I also sometimes feel baffled that we're still talking about this topic, but when I reflect on it, I'm not surprised. Like Kathleen, I put on the uniform at 14 and took it off at 50, when I was medically released following an injury in Afghanistan. I was reserve, regular force, back to DND civilian, reserve and regular force; so I had a 33-year career, around 40 if you count Sea Cadets, in uniform.

The class action lawsuit literally opened a Pandora's box for me. Prior to that, I would say I had an incredible career, and I still feel that way. However, I think, to move forward on this issue.... Like Kathleen, I'm more interested in moving forward, but sometimes it's necessary to delve into the challenges and the things that are difficult to hear to find the solutions.

While Canada did an incredible thing in 1989, being the first western nation to open all combat trades to women, it resulted in people like myself, Colonel (Retired) Eleanor Taylor, a friend of mine; and other women like Sergeant Kathleen—I didn't get your last name, so I'll call you Sergeant Kathleen—having incredible careers. I'm not going to say it was easy, but the challenges made me stronger.

I'm interested in answering any questions you might have about my lengthy career that might help us in moving the culture and really identifying this problem for what it was.

The Canadian Armed Forces has a crisis in leadership.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chair, there's no interpretation.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Sorry, I'll have to interrupt you just for a second, Major Seviour. We appear to be having a problem with our interpretation. It's from English to French. Is that the problem, Luc?

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I think the witness's microphone is too low.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Major Seviour, apparently you need to raise the microphone a little and maybe just say a few words for us.

[Joanne Seviour]

Okay. How is that audio? Is that clear?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Is that okay, Luc?

Okay, it seems like it's better, so maybe just go back 15 or 20 seconds before the interruption and start from there.

[Joanne Seviour]

You're breaking up in the audio, so I'm not hearing all your words, but my point was that I'm interested in answering any questions you might have with the objective of using this crisis in leadership as an opportunity, because I really feel that when men and women work together, we have complementary skills. While people like myself and Eleanor proved that we were capable of doing the job, and very well, it wasn't without a lot of challenges.

I think it's important to identify those areas where women's voices are literally going to make the armed forces stronger, because we don't often do things in the same way. We lead a little differently. Having grown up in that male culture, I understand their side, but I think it's time to start incorporating and valuing the skills of women leaders.

Thank you for all the work you do. I look forward to answering any questions you might have.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you very much, Major Seviour.

Now, for our final witness, here with us in person is Master Corporal Jacqueline Wojcichowsky.

If you want to begin your opening remarks now, just turn your microphone on. The floor is now yours.

[Master Corporal Jacqueline Wojcichowsky, As an Individual]

Hi. My name is Master Corporal Jacqueline Wojcichowsky, CD. I have 32 years of experience in the Canadian Armed Forces. I have worked in two different trades, as an armoured crewman and now in human resources.

I have held various positions with Lord Strathcona's Horse and also with Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, 1 Military Police Regiment, 3rd Canadian Division headquarters, 6 Intelligence Company as their release clerk now, and numerous other units.

I am here to speak about the disconnect between the military and Veterans Affairs with respect to the trauma of injury and illness in women currently serving and those who are veterans.

I believe there is a lack of female representation at all levels in the VAC organization, but specifically among individual representatives. This makes it especially difficult for female veterans to access the services and entitlements they require, because the male associates who are processing their files do not understand and therefore undervalue the trauma female soldiers have endured.

For example, when a rape victim is raped, they don't understand the trauma they go through.

Do they? Do you? Do I?

I do. I was there. I'm one of them.

The CAF lacks equipment that appropriately fits a woman. We struggle with clothing, rucksacks, helmets and boots that do not come in small enough sizes and are not designed to fit females. It doesn't just take a toll on our bodies. It becomes humiliating when we have to deal with wardrobe malfunctions in front of our male peers.

The constant stress of trying to fit in as a woman in a male's world can have long-lasting psychological effects. We shouldn't have to relive these stressors to gain access to benefits.

Do we? Do I? All the time?

We do.

On multiple occasions, I have witnessed the impact of PTSD as a result of sexual misconduct—like, for example, rape—being written off. I have watched my peers, my friends and my family suffer with insufficient support from VAC due to ignorant gatekeeping.

For example, my sister-in-law has been diagnosed with severe sexual misconduct PTSD and has short-term memory loss. She lives her life out of a daily black book. She served 16 years as a sigs operator and is receiving very little to no support from VAC.

Is that right?

In another example, my friend TC, who is located in B.C., is also suffering from a sexual misconduct PTSD assault. She also applied to VAC and is receiving support for her sexual assault, but the trauma from VAC.... Her mental health was not recognized for the veterans independence program and clothing allowance.

How does this happen? Can you tell me this?

A personal example of not being dealt with in a professional manner was when I was called by a VAC representative when I shouldn't have been. I informed him that I had not called, but I had given permission to an MLA to call on my behalf to discuss my outstanding claim on my lung disease. It was in the system since November 27, 2020, and it was at stage 3.

During this time, he indicated that I should release from my position in the military, though I am an active member and very capable of doing my job. He then hung up and called back. He apologized and retracted his words, but by this time, my PTSD had gone from 1 to 10. I told him I was recording my conversation, and then he repeatedly pushed me that we should call the deputy minister. My PTSD was overloaded, but then he continued to push.

During my service, I was raped, sexually harassed, verbally threatened and emotionally controlled. Due to my trauma, I have lost my self-control. It has had a negative impact on my ability to get promotions. Ongoing sexual harassment has affected my physical and mental health, which was not properly diagnosed until 2018 by OSI and Veterans Affairs.

In my case, the CAF did not do a proper, good job. It was Veterans Affairs that made the correction in this proper diagnosis, but most females are not that fortunate. In my case, what I did to move forward was I did the trial of 3MDR, the assisted memory desensitization reconsolidation, for my health. I require ongoing counselling that has helped me to find the right person. I have found support groups like Soldier On and Survivor Perspectives Consulting Group, and I have worked with sexual misconduct centres and other groups.

Although there are some resources available for women through VAC and various other groups, it's not enough for female veterans. We need female representatives hired in Veterans Affairs to actually make changes from the inside out. Veterans Affairs needs people like me in this position. We need people to have mentors for our new and serving members, as well as veterans. In my spare time I seek out veterans who need help with their paperwork for Veterans Affairs, because people are suffering without knowing their entitlements at all. We should be a resource, and I am a world of information. Women are actually seeking me to help them with the entitlements.

Alongside the requirements to improve the CAF and Veterans Affairs, we are failing our new and serving members and our veterans.

Without further change and the growth to support members, we are failing them even before they complete their service.

Now that I am no longer controlled by the shame, the rape, the sexual harassment, I feel empowered to uplift other women to share their own personal stories and stand up for themselves and be warriors. I am here. I am no longer ashamed. I'm here.

I thank you for this opportunity to speak today.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you very much, and thank you to all of our witnesses.

I will also thank all of you. You were originally scheduled to speak before this committee a few weeks ago, and it was cancelled. Particularly for Master Corporal Wojcichowsky, she had flown from Alberta to Ottawa and then found out the meeting was cancelled. I know it was very difficult for all of you to make the time to come back. We appreciate that you did that and that we're able to have you share your experiences and your expertise and your knowledge with us today. Thank you for that.

I'm going to move to our first round of questioning.

For the witnesses, that consists of six minutes for each party. There will be six minutes for the Conservative Party, then the Liberal Party, then the Bloc Québécois and then the New Democratic Party.

After that first round of questioning, if we feel it's necessary, I may take a small pause and suspend the meeting briefly for the sake of our witnesses. Then, we'll move to our second round of questioning.

We'll start with our first round.

As I mentioned, there will be six minutes per party. The first round goes to the Conservative Party for six minutes, and that will be Mrs. Cathay Wagantall.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Through you, Chair, first of all, retired Sergeant Kathleen Mary Ryan, CD, retired Major Joanne Seviour, and Master Corporal Jacqueline Wojcichowsky, CD, it is an honour to have you here. I can only imagine your bravery in being with us today.

I know you have things on your heart and your mind and experiences that we need to have a realization of—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Pardon me; I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm going to have to stop us really quickly here.

We have bells ringing for a vote in the House now. We could continue with a very short round of questions for each member if we were to sit partially through the bells. However, I would need unanimous consent.

Do I have unanimous consent to, say, sit for the first 15 minutes or so of the bells?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

I will then give each party about a three-minute round.

We can then, hopefully, come back after the bells. That will give us our suspension that we were seeking. It will be a little longer than we planned. Hopefully, we can come back after the bells and finish the meeting.

Ms. Wagantall, you have about two and a half minutes left in your remarks.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I raise a point of order, Mr. Chair.

You said we could come back after the vote, but does anyone really want to go vote in the House? We could all vote from here and save some time, since lot of people are participating virtually in the meeting.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

I'm looking around the room—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'm asking if we can all vote from here, with our phones. It would save us a lot of time.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Mr. Chair, I plan to vote here.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

I guess what I would ask....

I see there is a hand over here.

Mr. Desjarlais.