Evidence of meeting #55 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was women.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
I want to help motivate the suggestion from our colleague here.
Given the weight and gravity and severity of how important this issue is, and given that we have folks from across our country who are present with us, we have the opportunity to utilize our virtual settings, to maybe go to 25 minutes during that suspension and then have a maximum break of 10 minutes, from the 25th to the 35th minute, and then resume.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
Okay, thank you. Give me a moment here. I'll just see where we are with the bells.
All right. What I'll do is give each party a five-minute round. We'll suspend for the last few minutes of the bells. Then, when everyone has completed voting, we'll pick it back up. That will give us a shorter suspension.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
With that, Mrs. Wagantall, you have four and a half minutes remaining.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Thank you so much, Chair.
Thank you, everyone. I think this is the right direction that we should be going.
I would like to ask you each to briefly respond, so that we have a sense of your involvement in wanting to seek change in the military in regard to military sexual trauma.
Can you speak to the experience of women veterans in theatre versus on base here in Canada? When it comes to military sexual trauma, is there a difference?
Jacqueline, we'll maybe start with you, and then Ms. Seviour and Ms. Ryan.
MCpl Jacqueline Wojcichowsky
Yes, there is a huge difference. I've been overseas. I was approached by a male peer overseas and he tried to sexually assault me.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
In comparison to what's happening here in Canada within the armed forces versus overseas, I sometimes hear, “I was well protected when I was overseas versus at home.” Is that...?
MCpl Jacqueline Wojcichowsky
It varies. On my first tour, I was fine. On the second tour, I wasn't.
Major (Retired), As an Individual
I certainly haven't experienced any difference. In theatre, you're around tour operations. You're very busy. However, having said that, we have a disgraced general, Dan Ménard, who was well known in the Van Doos for his sexual predatory nature. He was convicted when he was home on leave and has been dishonourably discharged.
When you have a general in charge of the mission having affairs with junior corporals under his command, I think that answers the question very clearly that there's plenty of opportunity in theatre, as there was in Canada. I don't see a difference. It depends on the nature of your job. In some of them, you may be more protected, but overall, the culture was [Technical difficulty—Editor]
Conservative
Sergeant (Retired), As an Individual
I agree with the previous women who spoke. I find that there is a difference. I was raped in Canada while I was in the reserves, but went on to join the regular force and was deployed overseas.
On one tour, I was fine. I felt very much protected by the soldiers—men—around me. On other tours, I had to be very leery. What I have to point out, though, is that almost at the beginning of any deployment, any mission or any tour, any time we were together as a battalion or brigade, the girls would have a little chit-chat, saying to stay away from this person, and don't be alone with that person and kind of stick with this person.... I thought, “Do the guys have the same warnings? I don't think so,” and—
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Thank you.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
Sergeant (Retired), As an Individual
That's fine. There are many sides to this. It's unfortunate that we have such a limited amount of time, because I could speak forever.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
[Technical difficulty—Editor] and I know, Jacqueline, that we've had conversations around this. Can changes be made to the manner in which allegations of MST and misconduct are investigated?
MCpl Jacqueline Wojcichowsky
Yes, I think so. The MPs are not the best way. We need a different investigation group. I know, for example, that there has to be a different way to investigate. I know that for me, in reporting something, there are some really great investigations from the MPs, but sometimes there are not. For reporting something, sometimes they're just kind of like, “Yes, okay. This really did happen?” You get that they don't believe you. I've been through that: Do they really believe me? That's the thing.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
How would you set something up in a way that would mean you would have someone listening to you who you didn't fear was going to challenge you?
MCpl Jacqueline Wojcichowsky
That's the thing. When you go into somewhere, you want to have somebody who believes. You go into an area and you tell your story. You want somebody to believe you, because it's their word against yours. I went to an organization: “Hey, this guy raped me. The door opened, they screamed, they saw me naked....” You don't want to have something like that, but when you go to the chain of command, they're like, “Oh, that's Bob.” No, it's not Bob. That's not an appropriate manner. You want to be part of your life. This is my life.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
You talked—and I'm sorry, this is quite a while back—about a tiger—
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
I'm sorry, Ms. Wagantall. I have to stop you there, unfortunately.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
Now we'll move to Mr. Wilson Miao from the Liberal Party.
You have five minutes.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses for appearing here today. It's not easy to hear such stories, but we want to also see how we can move forward with this and prevent something like this.
I understand what Sergeant Ryan was saying. Fifty years ago, she was here to advocate for women's rights, and right now we're talking about this in our military and for veterans.
Through the chair, I would like to ask all the witnesses who are here today the following question: How can we prevent such sexual misconduct or trauma from happening in the military, and how are we able to move forward, especially with any recommendations that you may suggest?
Maybe we can start with Sergeant Ryan.
Sergeant (Retired), As an Individual
Thank you.
The million-dollar question is how you stop this trauma from occurring. I think it's education on both sides, but it's awfully hard to pin down a single problem. It seems to be that when deployed, there's almost a sense that the male [Technical difficulty—Editor] get a lot freer. Maybe that is the way to say it.
Depending on the group you're going out with [Technical difficulty—Editor] need to employ some protection.
I don't know where to begin. The [Technical difficulty—Editor]
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Blake Richards
I'm sorry, Miss Ryan, but there seems to be a bit of a challenge with your audio. I'm not sure whether there's much we can do, but you're cutting in and out a bit.
I'm not sure whether our technicians have any suggestions, but it does seem to be a bit of a problem.
Maybe just say a few words right now to see—
