Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[Paul Ledwell]

If I could, Mr. Chair, the real objective was to try to hear from as many veterans as possible and from as many veterans who were attached to the Afghan mission as possible. It wasn't a question of money. It was a question of reach and of getting the message out and the response back from as many as possible.

As I indicated earlier, right from the outset and the announcement of the monument, the engagement with the veteran community was consistent. It was regular. There was great awareness amongst those who had served in Afghanistan. When we reach out, there would be general awareness. That doesn't mean that everyone would respond, but we had a tremendous response—greater than 3,000.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Ledwell.

There are only two interventions left, and they will be five minutes each.

Go ahead, Mr. Paul‑Hus. You have five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Petitpas Taylor, I sent you a letter asking you about the process. In your response, which you sent on October 18, you said that, “as the project proponent”, you “felt the need to give greater weight to the results of public opinion”.

What did you mean by “felt the need”?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Between 52% and 62% of the respondents in our survey supported a concept. So I really feel the need to respect that outcome.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

In November 2021, the selection had been made, and it was decided that the Daoust team would win the competition. What happened between November 2021 and May 2023, when Minister Rodriguez agreed to change the project?

Aside from the famous survey—everyone knows isn't valid—what outside pressure was exerted to change the team?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Paul‑Hus, as I said before, I wasn't there at the time; I've only been in this position for three months.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Yes, I know, Madam Minister. However, you know how things work: you took over from Mr. MacAulay, who was in the position before you. Still, you must know what happened. Perhaps Ms. St‑Onge, the Minister of Canadian Heritage, knows. My impression is that nobody knows anything.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Paul‑Hus, there was no outside pressure in connection with the decision. I think the pressure came from the fact that we had to make sure we listened to the veterans. I think, as has been said so well today—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

The jury had made its decision and had chosen the Daoust team's concept. In November 2021, the issue was resolved. However, something must have happened between November 2021 and May 2023.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Still, we did see—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

What happened that caused the decision to be questioned?

Ms. St‑Onge, my question is for you, because your department is the one responsible for these competitions. How can a jury's decision be overturned? What kind of discussions need to take place? Who discusses with whom before questioning the choice and making a recommendation? A recommendation was made in February 2023, and Minister Pablo Rodriguez issued a final decision in May.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

If I may, I will answer your question, and then I'll turn it over to Ms. St‑Onge.

As I mentioned, the Department of Veterans Affairs is the lead on this project, the one that will ensure the installation of the monument. We made this decision after listening to what veterans had to say. They clearly told us that they thought the Stimson team's concept was better matched the mission.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You're talking about discussions with veterans. However, the pseudo-scientific survey was conducted before the decision was made in November 2021. Everything was done before the jury made its decision.

In fact, the jury members were aware of the results of the survey. They took that into account before they made their decision.

What happened after that? Why was a memo sent in early 2023? Who did your predecessor speak to? Who said the concept had to be changed? Was there any pressure from veterans groups, for example? The decision wasn't public knowledge at the time. What happened to change it?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Personally, I have no further information to give you.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Could the deputy minister tell us what happened?

[Paul Ledwell]

A lot more analysis was done, and it showed that the situation in Afghanistan had changed a lot.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Was that in August 2021?

[Paul Ledwell]

Yes.

At that time, we asked ourselves how we could recognize the sacrifices and service of Canadians in Afghanistan. We've put more emphasis on that.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

As I understand it, the whole process that was carried out beforehand was set aside, including the choice made based on all the technical and professional considerations, as well as the 2021 event. Some people working internally have said that the choice made was not satisfactory to everyone and that we should do something else.

Is that correct?

[Paul Ledwell]

We did—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

In your opinion, it no longer represented the sacrifices made in Afghanistan.

No one from the outside made this request. No veterans or organized groups went to see you, because nobody knew the choice that had been made.

How do you respond to that?

[Paul Ledwell]

We saw that the situation had greatly affected the people who had served in Afghanistan.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I know, but it's because people didn't know that the decision had been made.

[Paul Ledwell]

We heard that from a lot of veterans. That's why we've put more emphasis on how to recognize the service of veterans.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you for your interventions.

Last up is Bryan May, who has the floor for five minutes.