Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I apologize for interrupting you, but that's not what I'm asking.

Is it in writing anywhere that the questionnaire, or survey, should take precedence over a jury of experts?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Desilets, I, as the Minister of Veterans Affairs, believe that it's important to listen to veterans. What they think is the decisive factor. We saw that the vast majority of veterans supported the…

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I don't even agree on that. There's a veteran here in the room. He wrote us a fine letter, which you may have seen. He didn't see his own views reflected in this project at all. Not only that, but he didn't even know whether he had been identified as a veteran in the survey. So—

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Desilets, I just want to—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Ms. Petitpas Taylor, I'm the one asking the questions this time. Why do you think that was never done?

Let's move on to something else. The survey accounted for 90 seconds in each respondent's life. It's completely anonymous.

Can you tell me how many women completed the survey?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

No, I can' t answer that question.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That's because we can't know. It's impossible to determine whether a woman responded to the survey.

Can you tell me that the 300 hours of work by the jury were not worth as much as a survey that has been completely trashed?

And I haven't even mentioned the technical committee's evaluation, which covers the remaining 30% of the total score.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I believe that the outstanding work done by the jury needs to be recognized—

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You, Minister, did not show any appreciation of this outstanding work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Desilets, please allow the minister to answer the questions.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

The jury evaluated 25 concepts, and then determined the five finalists. We absolutely recognize the work that has been done.

Mr. Desilets, I think the members of this committee can understand that the deciding factor for me, as Minister of Veterans Affairs, is the voice of our veterans. I think listening to them is the least we can do, especially when it comes to a monument that will commemorate their sacrifices.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You know as well as I do, Madam Minister, that we respect and work for veterans. The problem isn't the veterans, but the process you've put in place, which you've completely disregarded.

As a result, your government's decision caused an uproar. The challenges aren't just coming from us on the committee. They're also coming from cultural associations. There are 300 organizations and individuals who support the Daoust team. It's not an anonymous survey. We have names.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Desilets, once again, I fully accept the decision to have listened to our veterans before choosing the monument project.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you for your interventions.

Now, I'd like to invite Ms. Blaney for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

As always, all my questions go through the chair.

My first question is this: I read the proposal package. As a person who ran a non-profit for many years, I'm very well versed in these. I didn't see anything in here about the process that was going to happen, in terms of consultation through an online survey. It says in here, “The jury will have overall responsibility for selecting the winning design, based on the combined scores of the jury and technical committee evaluations.”

I'm just asking for clarity. Was there anything in there that I somehow missed? If there isn't anything outlined in this proposal process for all the people who submitted, how was this decided upon—that there would be an online survey?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you so much for that question, Ms. Blaney.

I wasn't there during that process. I'm going to turn to my officials. Perhaps they can provide you with some of the details regarding the process.

[Paul Ledwell]

If I could, Mr. Chair, I would say this in response: The context of engagement around the monument, right from the outset and announcement, was one that consulted with veterans in order to get their perspective. First, there was a visioning exercise in 2014 about what the monument should represent. There was engagement around the location of the monument, with the views of veterans winning the day and the choice being to place it at LeBreton Flats. There was an engagement around what themes should underlie the monument. All of this was fed to those coming forward to apply and put forward submissions.

Right from the outset, the engagement with veterans—and understanding the importance of the perspective of veterans, especially those who served in Afghanistan, both in uniform and in civil society—was paramount.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

My next question, then, is this: I understand there was an online survey, and I see the results of the online survey. I'm wondering how information was verified. I heard the minister talking earlier about places where the survey was advertised, asking people to participate. How was their information verified? How do we know these were actually Afghan veterans, Afghan service people from the civilian side and folks related to Afghan veterans?

How was that verified through the process? What I'm hearing—through the chair, of course—is that it represents Afghan veterans' opinions. I'm not clear how that was verified, so we know that, in fact, this is what we're looking at right now.

[Paul Ledwell]

The individuals who responded were asked to self-identify and indicate their representation, history and connection. All those who were connected through the department, as the minister indicated, were through networks we had already established with veterans, and they were invited to come forward. It was very important to hear from the veteran community about this. They were asked to self-identify and to indicate that.

It's our experience that veterans seldom misrepresent their service. They're very faithful about that representation.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I have absolute faith in veterans. I don't know whether I have the same faith in every other person in the world, but I have faith in the veterans.

When you say they were self-identifying, what does that mean? Was there a section in the survey where they said, “This is who I am”? Was there any link to people being able to identify, so it could be verified on the other end?

[Paul Ledwell]

I'll ask my colleague Amy to address that.

[Amy Meunier, Assistant Deputy Minister, Commemoration and Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you.

They had an option to choose whether they were a veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces, a family member of someone who participated in the Afghanistan mission, an individual who participated in the Afghanistan mission or a member of the police. They had some options to choose from—one of those selections.

I did not undertake the survey myself, but it was self-reporting, as the deputy mentioned.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate that answer.

I'm also very curious about how the jury was included in this. Sadly, this seems very confusing. I've heard again and again that this was a political decision. That is heartbreaking to me. We're doing our study on women veterans. We're hearing about how utterly invisible they feel. I think their experience should concern us all. I would hate to be doing to Afghan veterans what has been done for so long to women veterans.

Could you explain why it wasn't in the proposal outline that this was going to be included? Was the jury aware of this consultation process? How were they included in deciding the best way to get the information?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Again, not having been there during the process of all of this, my colleague and I have over three months here.... Of course, it's our responsibility to make sure we can answer your questions. However, I'm still going to pass it on to my deputy, as I want to make sure we get the process per se right.

There is only one comment I am going to make. Making sure that we listened to the opinions of the majority of the veterans who answered this survey, to me, was a top priority.

Minister MacAulay was here at the time, but, again, I really stand by the decision that was made by the minister. I think you can't go wrong when you're listening to the opinions of veterans. When individuals tell me that when they see the concept that was designed and selected, for them it represents the sacrifice, the loss of the mission, it says a lot. That is really why we chose this concept as opposed to Team Daoust's design.

Paul, do you want to perhaps...?