Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Mr. Casey, once again, I find it rather curious that members of this committee are questioning the validity of veterans' opinions. There's been a lot of talk about the survey today. Whether scientific or not, 12,000 Canadians responded, and the vast majority of those people were veterans. The vast majority of them told us that the Stimson team's concept better represented their bravery, their sacrifices and their contribution to the mission.

So, I'm baffled when I see that, once again, veterans' opinions are being questioned. We're in the process of creating a memorial for veterans, so it's essential that we listen to them.

As I said, it's rather unusual for 12,000 people to respond to such a survey. That means there were a lot of people who were very interested in expressing their opinions. As Minister of Veterans Affairs, my priority is to make sure that we listen to them.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Casey.

Thank you, Minister.

I've been listening and hearing a lot about this consultation and the survey, and commemoration is a big component of Veterans Affairs. Commemorating the sacrifice that veterans have made is one of the pillars of Veterans Affairs.

In this consultation, what I heard from Mr. Ledwell as well was that you consulted using groups and contacts that were already available to you, which were veterans, veterans' families and people who had received veterans services. Would those things be readily available to Leger? Leger would not be able to get that because we've actually heard testimony before that connecting with veterans and getting lists of actual veterans is not that easy. We have them in Veterans Affairs as well as more contact points.

How would a consultation with veterans in the manner that was done by Veterans Affairs differ from a random poll or survey done by somebody like Leger, which would not have specific data on actual veterans in Canada?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I'll give a part of the answer and then from there, I'll turn it over to my deputy minister.

Again, we wanted to make sure that the information got out to veterans, and that is why we used the My VAC Account. There's a link there to make sure that the message got out to the veterans in question and to make sure that they were aware this questionnaire, survey and consultation were going to be going on. It's because we wanted to hear from them.

We also made sure that family members who lost loved ones during the mission were notified, and that stakeholders that work with veterans day in and day out were also made aware of the survey. It's the best way to make sure that we can get the information to folks. When we look at the results, we had over 12,000 people respond to the survey. We saw that it was an effective way to reach veterans.

I don't know, Paul, if you have anything else to add.

[Paul Ledwell]

I would just add if I could, Mr. Chair, that the sampling—and oversampling, perhaps—of veterans and those who served as part of the mission in Afghanistan was very much an objective in this. It's not to have a representative sample of all Canadians. It's really to get that sample and that perspective from veterans and others who served in Afghanistan.

Of the greater than 12,000 respondents—12,048 respondents—greater than 3,000 of those respondents were directly part of the mission to Afghanistan. It was critically important to hear from them.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

If I could just add to that as well, we still heard from 12,000 Canadians, so just because it wasn't a scientific survey doesn't mean that it's not valid. We still heard the opinions of 12,000 Canadians.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

I want to make sure that all veterans in the VAC system were given the opportunity to respond to the survey. The families of the 158 people who sacrificed their lives in Afghanistan were connected with this—and those who suffered casualties as well.

Virtually every single person who was involved in that mission or broadly in Veterans Affairs had the opportunity to participate, plus everyone else. Am I correct?

[Paul Ledwell]

That is correct. I would say two things in that regard, if I could, Mr. Chair.

One is that, when the monument was announced in 2014, many families of the fallen were there for that announcement. We were extremely touched. I wasn't there, but I've heard from and spoken to Afghanistan veterans who were there that evening, and the impact on them, because of the family members who were there, was tremendous.

In June, when we announced the design, there were also family members who had lost brothers, sons and daughters in Afghanistan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you so much, Mr. Ledwell.

The next two interventions will be shorter, meaning that they will be two and a half minutes.

I invite Luc Desilets to take the floor.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Petitpas Taylor, in connection with your last comment, which focused a little on me, I'd say that you can never go wrong when you listen to veterans. You can never go wrong. However, you can be wrong when you use veterans—which is what you did—for a survey like this. You can be wrong. That's all.

Now I have another question for you, Ms. Petitpas Taylor.

When you last appeared here, you said we had to decide, in the end, or something like that. Who were you referring to? Who was around the table?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Once again, the decision was made by the Government of Canada, after all, taking into consideration the recommendation of the Department of Veterans Affairs.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Was the Prime Minister's Office kept informed throughout this process?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Once again, as I clearly said, the decision was made by the government, although the recommendation, Mr. Desilets, came from my department, the Department of Veterans Affairs. The recommendation comes from our department.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

The recommendation comes from your department. So it was your recommendation to hire the Stimson team. Is that what you're telling me?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

It wasn't me, since I wasn't the Minister of Veterans Affairs at the time.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So it was your predecessor.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

My predecessor recommended supporting the Stimson team's concept, since the vast majority of respondents to the questionnaire had supported the Stimson team's concept.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

This is a $3.5‑million project, and the Prime Minister's Office was never made aware of it during the process.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I'm sure the Prime Minister's Office was made aware. However, it wasn't his office that made the decision. I repeat that it was the Department of Veterans Affairs that made the recommendation and that it was a government decision.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

Did people from the Prime Minister's Office ask any questions during the process?

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Again, I wasn't at Veterans Affairs at the time.

I don't know if my colleague knows the answer.

[Paul Ledwell]

I don't think they asked questions directly.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Okay.

What I find a little troubling in all of this is that you're not honouring veterans. Once again, you're ignoring them and using them for a completely bogus survey.

To answer an earlier question, I would point out that 12% of the respondents to this survey were Quebeckers, whereas we represent 23% of the population. What's more, a huge proportion of the respondents, 40% or 50%, were concentrated in the National Capital Region, which in no way represents the veteran population.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Mr. Ledwell, you have 15 seconds to respond to Mr. Desilets' intervention, if you wish.

If not, I will give the floor to Ms. Blaney for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

My last question really circles around this idea of nothing about us without us, which is something that I really try to practise in the work that I do. I understand there was an open public survey where people were able to self-identify who they are, but it wasn't something specifically for Afghan veterans and their loved ones. That's where my concern is, because we're hoping that representation was there but we don't know for sure.

My question is, basically, why there was not an investment in a survey that would outreach specifically. We've heard testimony today that you had information and that information was put on the My VAC Account. I know a lot of veterans who would never look at their My VAC Account because of other issues. I'm just wondering. Was it too expensive in the perspective of the department to actually hire an organization that would call those folks, reach out to them, find ways to identify and connect with them and ask their opinions? What we would know, then, is that those veterans were represented and that their voices were heard.

In this system I really appreciate the self-identifying, but it doesn't actually meet the need that I have—and this is nothing personal. I have no opinion. I'm not an Afghan veteran, and I am not a person who lost somebody, but it worries me that the outreach.... This seems to be an issue with VAC. All too often the way that veterans are consulted is a general online process, but that doesn't actually connect directly with veterans where they are to find out how things can be done better.

I'm just wondering. Was it an issue of money? Why was it not looked at to have something more specific?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have 30 seconds.