Evidence of meeting #72 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was leadership.
A recording is available from Parliament.
November 28th, 2023 / 5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
That's a really nice segue into my next question.
I was doing a bit of background.... You talk about leadership style and men and women having two different styles of leadership. I'd like you to explain that to me, because when we look at an organization, normally we think that leadership is the person who is in charge. They have their style. However, you're telling me there's a bit of a difference between male and female styles of leadership. Could you explain that?
5:15 p.m.
Member, RCMP Veteran Women's Council
Police work is a job to do. We have to solve people problems. We have to command. We step out of a police car and take control of a situation. It's all about leadership.
Women brought a different reaction and a different skill set. Too often it started to be devalued. They'd say we had soft skills, or were better communicators, or were better at being empathetic—
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
5:15 p.m.
Member, RCMP Veteran Women's Council
Yes, we were better storytellers; we talk too much, though.
However, what we've found now in policing is that all of the skills the women brought—the better communications, the negotiating, the emotional intelligence, the buy-in—have reduced the complaints against the force and reduced lawsuits. All the men are copying what was considered the female style, so leadership is leadership.
I've got to stop talking. I can see the gavel.
5:15 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
We will have a chance to continue a little bit later.
Don't forget that Madame Turmine is on video conference. She is still here.
Right now let's go to MP Carolyn Bennett for five minutes, please.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank Ms. Turmine for her concise recommendations. It makes our work easier.
It's great when people come with recommendations. I think it helps the analysts as well.
I thank everybody for their testimony. I know that my colleague MP May wants to talk to Madam Miller, but first I have some questions for Madam Hall.
So far, your answers have been so fantastic that I think they should be recommended reading for everybody. I was at those early Monday morning meetings with Judy Sgro and Wayne Easter and Grant Mitchell in 2014. You came there with your recommendations from the RCMP Veteran Women's Council. I guess I was a bit surprised that you weren't referenced when the HR people from the RCMP were speaking about whether there was an advisory committee.
I'd like to know if you are able, with your committee, to advise the RCMP on what happens to their active members, what happens at Depot, and on all the reflections that veterans have had? How does that influence what happens, not only as veterans but also in that prevention part that you've all talked about?
5:20 p.m.
Member, RCMP Veteran Women's Council
I'd love to say that we've had influence with them, but we've had very little communication, so...
We do have an influence; sorry.
We would love to, but the RCMP Veterans' Association works with them, and they're working on their relationship.
We asked for statistics. We had the benchmark from Deputy Commissioner Dan Dubeau, which I reference, and in our written submission we have between 2008 and 2014 the attrition patterns for women compared to men. We asked a year ago for the RCMP to provide another five-year window so that we have that benchmark and can look for progress. I would assume, or I would hope, that there would be some progress.
Two different presidents of our Veterans' Association kept asking. The answer, I think, wasn't until last week: They don't have that data stream anymore and they can't give us that information. That's not great communication. That's not respectful, or not from the council's point of view. I know that the RCMP Veterans' Association is an excellent association, and they have a relationship.
I have to say that they were the ones who told me in 2007 that you didn't need to have pensionable service to be a veteran, and they wanted females to join. The RCMP Veterans' Association is extremely welcoming. They have some sort of relationship, but the RCMP Veteran Women's Council is like a black box right now.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Carolyn Bennett Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON
You work as volunteers, but I think you're saying that you don't really have access to the data you would need around attrition or on how you would analyze retention or in terms of experience. Do you have the resources to also get the qualitative data from your veterans?
5:20 p.m.
Member, RCMP Veteran Women's Council
No, that would be the purview of the RCMP. We are volunteers. We're not getting paid. As a matter of fact, Darlene came here on her own dime from Prince Edward Island. She paid her own way. That's how important this is. We did that on occasion to meet with the deputy commissioner.
We're not looking for a job. It shouldn't be our job. However, when we ask for statistics, we'd like to get them so that we can better inform and advise them. That's what we would like to do. We just haven't had that open communication. We had more communication under Commissioner Paulson. Sometimes it was strained, but they were listening and were very interested in the four recommendations in our 2014 report, particularly on exit interviews. We had a—
I know. I have to stop talking.
5:20 p.m.
Member, RCMP Veteran Women's Council
Our four recommendations in 2014 were to direct the commissioner of the RCMP to start an ethos change and to intertwine the executive development in the promotion system into the discipline system. We also asked that they reconsider their focus on quotas, because if you just keep feeding in women and your attrition is high due to a problem in the culture, that's not an answer.
On exit interviews, it isn't just that the women and men who ask for exit interviews don't get them; it seems as if the organization doesn't even care why you're leaving. You're always given transfers within the organization. We said, “If you had an independent body that could do an exit interview when someone is leaving either a detachment or a section, you could catch the toxic work environment in real time, before you lose real people.” Commissioner Dan Dubeau was very interested in that. It came back a couple of times, then went into a black hole. We don't know what happened with that. Hopefully, they did something on it.
The last thing is this: We feel very strongly that there should be an oversight board—maybe the ombuds. It should be a governing body. I love Nishika to pieces and it's great that they're ombuds, but we would like to see a governing body.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you, Ms. Hall. I have a yellow one and a red one, but it's not a full stop. It's just to advise you.
I'd also like to tell you that Darlene can claim those expenses. We're going to reimburse that.
5:25 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
There's no problem with that.
Thank you.
Now we're going to two short interventions of two and a half minutes.
Mr. Desilets, it's over to you for two and a half minutes.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My compliments on your French, Ms. Bennett.
Ms. Turmine, you alluded to the equipment used by women in the armed forces. A few weeks ago, a female doctoral student said something that shocked me. She told us that sometimes the gear was so hopeless that some women in the military just opted for a full mastectomy.
Have you ever heard of anything like that?
5:25 p.m.
Operation manager, Quebec, Veterans Transition Network
Quite a few women in our group experienced problems. The complaints were not necessarily related to the equipment. It was the gear, things like ill-fitting backpacks and uniforms. I never heard about what you just mentioned, but I heard a lot of complaints about the backpacks and shoes, among other things.
There are also all those aspects related to a woman's biology. Women might be pregnant or menstruating. In the armed forces, that's not always acknowledged or respected. That's what I heard from the women.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Great. Thank you.
Average pay for women veterans is much lower than for men. Why is that?
5:25 p.m.
Operation manager, Quebec, Veterans Transition Network
I don't have an answer for you. I think the other two witnesses could answer it better than I could. However, my general answer would be that it's the same as for civilians.