Evidence of meeting #81 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was police.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:40 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to express my sincere thanks to the witnesses for their participation today and their military service. Thank you as well for being so open with the committee. I know it can't be easy.
Ms. MacDonald, according to a letter from Colonel Hanrahan, the evidence obtained in connection with your complaint showed that the sexual assault allegations were not substantiated.
How do you explain that response, given where you were in the complaint process?
February 7th, 2024 / 5:40 p.m.
Master of Social Work, As an Individual
The issue with that is they're saying that's it's unfounded, but it's ridiculous, because the issue is that the military police wouldn't copy down the allegations at the beginning. I'd call up the Sexual Misconduct Response Centre. In 2015 they sent me to deal with the chain of command. In 2016, after I got out, I'd be speaking with military police, and what they would do is not do the documentation. The military provost's office is blaming me for the military police officers not doing the documentation.
The other issue is that the complaints would go back into the chain of command, and the people who were supposed to be addressing the complaints, like the military police officers, would speak with the chain of command and ask them how to address my complaints before they would allow me to make an allegation.
It's just an exercise in futility with the military police provost's office, because all they did was review the files—or the non-existent files—of the military police officers, and then blame me for their incompetence and their violations in not writing down the allegations.
5:45 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
When the incidents occurred, I imagine military police wrote a report. Didn't they?
5:45 p.m.
Master of Social Work, As an Individual
For the incidents that occurred, they did not make a report in writing because during the time whenever....
I had three sexual assaults that had been investigated by civilian police. The civilian police have confirmed that a definite sexual assault happened on January 23, 2015. The military police refused to investigate it. They got the allegations in 2021 and they did not investigate those allegations.
The other issue would be sexual exploitation by a member of the chain of command. They defer to the member within their police investigation, so nothing happened with that one.
Then there's the issue of being sexually assaulted in basic training. The way it would work is that I would have to go to the chain of command and make the complaint. They assigned a civilian administrative clerk to be my assisting officer. She pretended that she did not know that a breast grope is a sexual assault. Then she wrote in to the chain of command that she didn't know how to address my allegations. The chain of command then was just hoping that I would go away. They would not address it. They even went so far in 2018 as to call me up and scream and yell at me to stop trying to make a report prior to having my first mediation with the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal regarding the abuses that they had subjected me to.
It was like a complete obstruction of justice and intimidation by the members of the chain of command who are engaging in the sexual abuse of their members.
5:45 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Did I hear correctly that, in one case, the accused was in charge of the investigation into your complaint?
5:45 p.m.
Master of Social Work, As an Individual
Yes. That would be an issue.
I have a Human Rights Tribunal case. As soon as I complained about the sexual harassment, they just continued to harass me and they tried to take administrative measures against my career. They did not want me to become a social work officer because I was adamant about this type of behaviour not being appropriate. They decided to threaten to dishonourably discharge me and declare me mentally unfit for service for complaining. They allowed the doctor who ordered the medical examination to create the medical evidence to declare me mentally unfit to do the investigation.
5:45 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you.
My next question is for Mr. Sawyer or Ms. Sharpe.
How is your organization funded? I don't have a lot of time left, so if you could keep your answer brief, I would appreciate it.
5:45 p.m.
President, Canadian Veteran Service Dog Unit
Yes, absolutely.
Our organization is financed through donations from members of society, and some corporate donations as well. We get no grants and we get nothing from VAC or anyone.
5:45 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Veterans Affairs Canada, or VAC, doesn't give you any funding, but does it recognize your organization?
5:45 p.m.
President, Canadian Veteran Service Dog Unit
Yes, we have charitable status. Is that what you mean?
5:45 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Yes, all right.
Do you buy the dogs, train them and everything?
5:45 p.m.
President, Canadian Veteran Service Dog Unit
Yes, correct. Our trainers we have hired actually train the service dogs themselves. One of the things that sets us apart from a lot of other organizations is that we have ongoing training sessions. After the member and the dog are fully certified and they can go out into public, we then have weekly training sessions that our members can attend. It almost acts like a peer support.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
You are already over your time, Mr. Desilets. I was letting Mr. Sawyer finish his answer.
On Zoom, we have Ms. Rachel Blaney.
Ms. Blaney, you have six minutes to ask questions of our witnesses. Please go ahead.
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you so much, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses. Thank you for being here and sharing your very important stories and for your service.
If I could come to you first, Ms. MacDonald, you've had a unique experience in the sense that you're both a woman veteran and a social worker who has worked with VAC.
Given this perspective, how do you think VAC caseworkers can improve in working with veterans, especially women who have experienced military sexual trauma?
5:50 p.m.
Master of Social Work, As an Individual
Cut down on the amount of bureaucracy that is present in order to make it user-friendly for the women seeking services.
Some of the women I work with as a social worker have musculoskeletal or physical issues from the abuse. They don't want to go through the medical processes, because it's so tedious to prove the injury is military service-related. It stops them from going through it. It also repeats the trauma over and over again. It's retraumatizing and revictimizing.
Would it be possible for me to expand upon the last question?
I needed to gather evidence of sexual abuse for the Human Rights Tribunal. I had to go through access to information. The request went through the member who was sexually exploiting me. I was looking for telephone records. Of course, the member was not able to provide them, and I needed to get a warrant in order to get the evidence.
I can't get evidence unless a policing body goes and looks for the evidence. In the military, the request went directly to the person who was accused of abusing me.
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you for that clarity. I appreciate that. It leads to my next question.
We've heard again and again from women veterans and experts that MST survivors need a way to report their sexual harassment or assault outside the CAF altogether. A lot of that is focused on concerns about chain of command.
What difference do you think an external reporting system would have made for your case, in terms of seeking justice for MST?
5:50 p.m.
Master of Social Work, As an Individual
I would have been sexually assaulted less. I would have had less abuse. It wouldn't have been so bad for me if there had been an outside reporting mechanism.
It was also very bad because when I went to the police and asked them for help, they told me they couldn't help me. It put me back into the situation where I was dealing with my abusers. It went on for a year—the abusers pretending they were going to do an investigation into it and then just not doing it.
The system creates a lot of trauma and needs to be externalized. The way it's set up now gives them more opportunity to hurt their victims.
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you for that.
Are you okay if I ask another question, or would you like me to give you a break and ask a question of the other witness?
5:50 p.m.
Master of Social Work, As an Individual
I think I'm okay. I'm sorry about that.
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
No, you should not be sorry. I want to make sure we're looking after each other.
I read in your information that VAC denied you a support person when you were interviewed by police about what had happened. Can you talk a bit about the rationale VAC gave you and how that felt for you?
5:50 p.m.
Master of Social Work, As an Individual
The rationale VAC gave me was that it was a social issue as opposed to a medical issue.
I'm pensioned for severe PTSD. Sometimes I have a vomiting condition. I'll vomit and can't complete.... I'll vomit all day long. They denied me a support person and said I would have to call the ambulance if I were to have a PTSD attack. Luckily for me, I vomited on the weekend, two days beforehand. Then I was able to make the police report. My cousin drove me to the place to do it, so I had family support.
I was lucky where other victims might not be.
5:55 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you for that.
I'm going to start with you first, Ms. MacDonald, and then go over to Ms. Sharp. I'll ask you both the same question.
I am very curious about this: I feel that often what we're hearing in testimony is that VAC disregards the interrelation of mental and physical health problems, in terms of the benefits they provide for veterans.
I'm wondering whether you could both share a bit about the physical manifestations of the PTSD you have, if you're comfortable.
5:55 p.m.
Master of Social Work, As an Individual
There's vomiting. If I'm activated with PTSD, I have bits of working memory. I have issues with body pains. I relive the trauma. There are physical issues and there are sexual and reproductive health issues.
I guess body pain would be a big one. I also have migraine issues. It's very difficult to get the consequential issues diagnosed, because it's like a situation of.... It's like a diagnosis where they rule out everything. Within the current medical system, health care practitioners are unlikely to know that they have to attribute it to the service in order for the veteran to then be able to get additional health care treatments that would help to address that in day-to-day life.
That's my answer.