Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 26th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I want to welcome Mike Kelloway, who is filling in for Sean Casey.

We're going to start right now with the only round of questions. You get six minutes each and you can split your time.

We'll start with Mr. Tolmie.

Fraser Tolmie, you have six minutes for questions. Please go ahead.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here.

I want to thank Vicky for her service. We were stationed together in Bagotville, Quebec, for I think three years. She's someone I care about, and I'm glad to see her here. I want to thank her for her testimony.

Thank you, Mr. Booth, for being here too.

I'm going to start with Mr. Booth. Something that popped up when you were giving your presentation was that a recommendation from 2017 is finally being implemented. We've heard this before. We've done numerous studies with recommendations and it's taken years to implement them.

Could you elaborate a bit on that for me?

[Nick Booth]

Yes. The 2017 study was run by True Patriot Love, so it was an independent study. It made some recommendations on how the transition of serving members and, in particular, connections to private sector employment could be improved. I would say a number of those things have improved over the years. Certainly, the Canadian Armed Forces transition group—in my experience, in my five years of being here in Canada—has done a very good job.

I'm pleased to see that the subject hasn't gone away and that this committee and others across government continue to focus on it.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I think you will understand from our perspective that we are working diligently to help veterans. The length of time for a recommendation to come through is very frustrating, and we keep hearing the same complaints and issues. This government hasn't acted on them.

It's very frustrating for us too. We feel like we're wasting our time, when we're supposed to be advocating for veterans to get them better service.

I thank you for your honesty.

Vicky, I'd like to ask you a question. I'd like some clarification on your comments on The Pepper Pod. We've had The Pepper Pod here before.

I wasn't sure if I completely got your comments accurately. Could you elaborate on what your comments were?

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

There's a long list of stuff that I could elaborate on for The Pepper Pod.

As a disabled person, I wasn't allowed to bring my service dog. I stayed up until 2 a.m. There was no handrail for me to go downstairs and I had to walk on my bum to get to the basement. I was asked to cook my own supper at night and clean up afterwards, after sitting down for hours and hours. I stopped one of the meetings because the lady next to me had had a hysterectomy just two weeks prior. They wanted to continue with the program.

I don't think the goal was to create a women's centre, especially if I go on the Internet and see a whole bunch of Legion guys there. I don't feel safe there anymore. It's like if you bring some Taliban to a boys' club in Valcartier. Do you know what I mean?

There's some stuff that is not considered safe. There's a program, a 24-hour workshop, concerning sexual misconduct. I wouldn't do that workshop at all because that is such a complex PTSD trauma to even dare open. You leave the cohort, and what then? You're still in it. Memories are coming up.

It's extremely dangerous for the health of the veteran depending on where they are in their journey.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you for elaborating on that. I know you're limited to five minutes and you're not always able to expand.

One of the things I'm concerned about, knowing you personally, is PTSD and the compounded impacts of your service. The incident in 2003 was, I believe, a jet blast. Is that correct? There was also the job you were doing with microparticles and paint.

These are compounding things. When you go to Veterans Affairs, are they recognized or do they get separated out as different events?

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

They think “metal tech” is metal. They don't consider the whole scope of our work.

You can pull back the testimony from Marie-Ève Doucet. I have worked with her on the flight lines. I have changed engines with her. I have felt the jet fuel fall down and go into my lymph nodes and the hydraulic seep through my brain and seep through my skin. Our skin is the biggest organ. How can I even use gloves when the ketone melts the gloves? It's all of those things.

Also, those microparticles are from the aircraft being there, from the JP-8. If I'm doing a repair on a jet, I don't necessarily have the whole thing, so I have to sand. Once you sand down polyurethane paint, it releases very toxic microparticles of isocyanates. Isocyanates seep into the skin and the pores—everywhere.

I'm even worried about the janitors. The janitors should be covered. We have canteens in those buildings. Our food is made in those buildings, buildings that were created in the 1950s, not to save the technicians but just for the war. They were meant to be temporary.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Ms. Cox.

Thank you, Mr. Tolmie.

Now let's go to Ms. Hepfner for six minutes, please.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank our witnesses for being here today and for sharing, especially Vicky Cox.

Ms. Cox, thank you for your service and for sharing. I know that it's traumatic to keep sharing your story, but it's really important that we hear from you and that you put your story on the record so we can learn from it and move forward.

I'm sorry that you had to start today by listening to a bunch of political wrangling. You deserve to have respect when you're here and you deserve to be listened to.

I want to go back to the story you were just telling in the last segment. Just to make sure I understand it correctly, you worked with airplanes—CF-18s, I think—and you came into contact with a lot of hazardous materials with your work.

You've since found that all of the conditions that could be attributed to the substances you worked with might be affecting your health, and you're having difficulty getting recognition for that. Would you explain in a little more detail what that means and where you think the support should come from? How should we change the system to support people like you?

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

I was in charge of WHMIS on most of the bases and I had easy access to the MSDSs that explain the health hazards, most of which include some sort of cancer. When I released from the military, I asked PMed for a list of toxic products that I had been exposed to in my service. They were unable to provide me that. I asked the doctor if he could provide me a list of toxic products that are associated with my trade. He couldn't. I asked Veterans Affairs if I could have a list of toxic products that are associated with my trade and I got nothing.

I'm just here, then, waiting to get cancer to try to prove it afterwards, while all the other countries have figured that out already and we're 10 years behind. I fear that I won't be here long enough for my children. I'm losing friends by the minute, Marie-Ève being a very close one, and Steve being a very close one as well.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

You're saying you're having trouble even getting a diagnosis. Is that right?

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

Yes. I asked my medical doctor, Dr. Jung, who is a retired admiral, to get me a scan for precancerous cells, and I was refused. I've asked Veterans Affairs to send me somewhere so I can at least prevent cancer—because I know they have scans now in Toronto so you can prevent cancer—and I was denied. Everything is out-of-pocket.

My suggestion is that you take the past 30 years of people who worked on F-18s and at least scan some of them. Get a percentage. Do a study of the past 30 years on these technicians and see who out of these technicians got pancreatic cancer and who got brain cancer and divide that up. Speaking of the F-18, we have the F-35s coming, and my first thought is, where's the list of toxic products? Are we ready to receive those jets and protect?

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

In our last meeting, we were speaking about women's health in particular. Among veterans, there are fewer women, and there may be fewer supports for things that particularly affect women. We know there's less research in the medical field on conditions that affect women—for example, menopause. We hear that a lot of servicewomen, when they start going through those life changes, don't really have the supports to deal with them.

Do you have any recommendations? I think toxic substances would affect anybody. Maybe they affect women differently from men. Do you have anything particular to add?

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

My recommendation is that female members have a broad idea of when they would like to start a family, and three months before they even start, they're removed from the floor.

I was at a fertility clinic with my husband...and I had to fight tooth and nail not to install PRC, which is the most damaging thing to the cell of the embryo as it's developing. By the time the stick turns blue, it's already done. I had to go to medical and fight with the doctor to get six months off the floor because I was going to be made to paint. I had to ask and sound like the squeaky wheel so I could potentially protect and do what was best for the baby. I wasn't joking; I was in fertility.

I have three children, one of whom I had before I got really exposed and two of whom had exposure. One has nothing. One has asthma and dyslexia with anxiety, and the other one has ADD with anxiety and anger.

I do not believe that I had different genetics apart from what changed in my environment. What changed in my environment was the work environment. I was put in an office, but I was still in the building. I couldn't be on the flight line. I needed to be away from possible explosions and paint jobs and away from exhaust fuel, which is carcinogenic. It was blowing toward the PMQs. Everything is going towards the children and towards the wives. It's a much bigger thing.

The Marie-Ève Doucet case should be brought to this study, and this committee should really hone in on that. There should be presumptive claims for haz-mat exposure, especially for women.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Cox and Ms. Hepfner.

We now go to Mr. Desilets for six minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to my fellow members.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Cox, your story was incredibly moving. No one can be indifferent to the things you told us. I want to ask you about something difficult, the sexual assault you endured. Did you feel listened to and respected while you were going through the various steps in the process?

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

I was bullied.

I felt pushed around.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

In what way?

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

The situation came out after General Vance launched Operation Honour. I finally felt as though I could open up to someone in a fairly high-ranking position. Nothing was done, though. When I got to the transition unit, my situation wasn't even taken into account. I was assigned a male mentor.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

What happened to the perpetrator?

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

I reported four cases. I couldn't sleep because of them. I had to have a panic button installed beside my bed.

I fought to have the cases investigated. In one of the cases, the attacker was already incarcerated in Quebec City. In another case, the people at Bagotville wanted to protect the perpetrator. He was demoted to master corporal and was told that he couldn't move up any further in the armed forces. He left the forces but was hired back for the same L3 position.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I have a bit of an odd question. How many times did you have to tell the story about your sexual assault?

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

I've told it so many times that I don't even cry anymore. I had to explain what happened to the military police, to the doctors, to my therapist and to my husband. I had to tell some of the story to my case manager. There were countless people. It was really awful.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand.

I'm going to switch topics. Marie‑Ève Doucet appeared before the committee as a witness, and she attributed her situation directly to her exposure to toxic chemicals while in the military. You are saying the same thing in terms of the impact on your children.

Do you know of any studies that were done? Did you, yourself, do any research?

[Vicky-Lynn Cox]

I started looking into it, but a study is really needed on the effects of that exposure, especially before the arrival of the F‑35s.