Veterans Affairs Committee on April 29th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 91 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Just a reminder that we're continuing our study of the transition to civilian life.

I also want to welcome MP Doug Shipley to our committee.

Today's meeting is being held in hybrid form, in accordance with the Standing Orders. Members can participate in person or via the Zoom application.

I will now make a few important reminders, which are intended to avoid acoustic incidents.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Mr. Chair, I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm getting nothing in my earpiece—no interpretation, nothing. Even when you're speaking in English, I can usually hear it in my ear. I've turned it up, and I've unplugged it and plugged it back in again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'm going to try again.

Ms. Blaney, can you hear us?

There doesn't seem to be any audio, unfortunately.

Should we take a break to sort out this technical problem?

[A voice]

I heard it in English and French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Things are working fine in French, but Ms. Blaney isn't getting any audio so far. So we're going to suspend the meeting for a while. This will allow us to correct this technical problem and welcome our colleague Mr. Desilets.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We will now resume our meeting.

As I started to say, I have an important warning to make regarding acoustic incidents. I'd like to remind all MPs and meeting participants in the room of the following important preventive measures.

To prevent disruptive, potentially dangerous and injury-causing acoustic incidents, I remind all participants to keep their earpieces away from all microphones at all times.

As indicated in the Speaker's press release of Monday, April 29, which is addressed to all MPs, the following measures have been taken to help prevent acoustic incidents.

All earpieces have been replaced with a model that significantly reduces the likelihood of an acoustic incident.

The new earpieces are black while the old earpieces were grey. Please use only an approved black earpiece.

By default, all unused earpieces at the start of a meeting will be disconnected.

When your earpiece is not in use, please place it face down in the middle of the sticker on the table to your right.

Please refer to the cards on the table for guidelines on preventing acoustic incidents.

The room layout has also been adjusted to increase the distance between microphones and reduce the risk of acoustic feedback related to a nearby earpiece. These measures are in place so that we can operate without interruption and protect the health and safety of all participants, including interpreters.

I thank you for your co-operation.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

Before we start, I would like to apologize on behalf of the committee. I know we were trying to have you for another meeting and that because of our agenda, it was impossible. Today we are pleased to welcome you at the committee.

We now welcome the first panel of witnesses.

As individuals, we have have Mr. Phillip Lopresti and Mark Meincke. Mr. Meincke is a retired corporal and host of Operation Tango Romeo, a trauma recovery podcast for military, veterans, first responders and their families. He is here by video conference.

We also have, from Helmets to Hardhats, Major-General (Retired) Paul Bury, director.

You're going to have five minutes each for your opening remarks. After that, members of the committee will ask you questions.

I will start right away with Mr. Phillip Lopresti.

You have five minutes for your opening statement. Please go ahead.

[Phillip Lopresti, As an Individual]

Hello. My name is Phillip Lopresti. I want to express my appreciation for the invitation and opportunity to speak to the entire committee today. Thank you.

As some of you may already know, I was involved in the play Contact! Unload, which is a performance that brings to life the personal stories of veterans returning home and the difficulties they face when transitioning back to civilian life. While I am currently serving in the Canadian Armed Forces, I am appearing today as an individual in a civilian capacity to speak about my experiences as a postgraduate student at the University of British Columbia and my role in Contact! Unload. As such, I would like to advise the committee that I will not be commenting on my work in the Canadian Armed Forces given my junior rank.

I would now like to take this opportunity to further explain the play and its impacts.

The personal stories and invaluable data that emerged from the making of Contact! Unload are not just my own. Instead, they represent the shared experiences of countless brave service personnel who have devoted themselves to protecting the interests of their country and the well-being of its citizens. The moving scenes and dialogue of the play not only illustrate the struggles of military service and the difficulties transitioning back to civilian life, but also set the stage for the surfacing of more nuanced issues that have eluded public awareness for decades.

Contact! Unload allowed audience members, educators, practitioners and anyone who would bear witness a gateway into the lived experiences of our veterans and those of many other allied nations. Service personnel are exposed to trauma at significantly greater levels than the general population. By the nature of their work, these individuals are likely to be involved in extreme conditions that impact their physical, psychological and emotional states. This occurs through responding to a wide array of emergencies, both foreign and domestic. These soldiers will encounter repeated instances of human suffering, death and danger at levels greater than the general population, which increases their risk of PTSD and other mental health issues due to their duty-related exposures—if not by way of active duty, then simply via the mechanisms necessary to live and operate within the military.

The needs of the military place a great amount of pressure on its members to conform to and adopt a particular way of thinking and operating. While this mindset may allow its adopters to succeed within the military, it also creates barriers to transitioning back to civilian life when a soldier's military career has ended. Literature in this field suggests that military professionals are in a subgroup that, to a large extent, endures frequent negative outcomes that impact key areas of functioning and quality of life. Additionally, individuals with work-related PTSD are consistently challenged by poor long-term work outcomes, their careers often marred by extensive stress and sick leave, decreased work productivity and early retirement or unemployment.

In relation to how mental health professionals can best support this demographic, it is important to understand that these personnel, regardless of gender orientation, tend to endorse hypermasculine gender roles related to military discipline culture. This key factor exacerbates how they experience stigma. While the endorsement of some traditional forms of military ethos and culture has some positive aspects, it is also associated with a host of problematic issues, such as poor self-esteem, reduced interpersonal intimacy, depression and anxiety. Those who endorse these ideals are often left in a double bind such that if they successfully subscribe to these unrealistic and contradictory hypermasculine ideologies, they may in turn limit their coping repertoires, often by resisting help. If they deviate from the masculine norms, they often expect to be harshly judged or socially ostracized.

When these gender role violations occur, the resulting strain can be experienced as so overwhelmingly unpleasant that many compensate by subscribing even more rigidly to these unrealistic ideals. This is problematic, as a growing body of research suggests there's a strong association between the degree to which individuals endorse dominant masculine ideologies and poor health behaviours. Avoidance of therapy is one of these behaviours. When undertaken, it often involves disclosing weakness or problems, which for many is threatening to their identity as a soldier and may promote further emotional isolation.

While Contact! Unload did not attempt to correct these risk factors directly, its context was extremely effective in highlighting the difficulties that veterans face in dropping their military identities and reintegrating into civilian life. I am proud of my involvement in this project as a researcher, actor and advocate. I am happy to have had the opportunity to share with all of you a small amount of what I witnessed through my involvement.

Thank you again so much for this opportunity to appear before you. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lopresti.

Now I'd like to invite Mr. Mark Meincke for five minutes.

[Mark Meincke, Corporal (Retired) and Host, Operation Tango Romeo, Trauma Recovery Podcast for Military, Veterans, First Responders and Their Families, As an Individual]

Thanks very much for having me. This is my second time here. The first time was in person.

To start, why is it me who's here in front of the committee today? The reason is that I went 23 years without being diagnosed with PTSD. PTSD is a neurological trauma that's encoded in terror. It is an actual neurological condition that you can see in a brain scan. It's not because you are weak. It's not avoidable. When it happens, there's nothing you can do about it.

In 2017, after 23 years of being undiagnosed, I entered the Veterans Affairs' system. I was lucky. The beginning of the Veterans Affairs' experience worked well for me. However, it was five years of clawing and scraping before I could actually see the benefits. The benefits that I was eventually able to access I didn't know existed, except through talking with others within the veteran community. The programs are there. Access to those programs is the issue.

I host Operation Tango Romeo, a trauma recovery podcast for veterans, first responders and their families. Because of that central position within the veteran community, I get a lot of stories. I get stories that are good, bad and indifferent about the experiences of the transition to civilian life and about the experiences with Veterans Affairs Canada.

Overall, the reputation of Veterans Affairs Canada within the veteran community isn't great. It's seen as predatory and as an insurance agency whose primary role is to “deny, deny until they die”. That's the most common saying we have.

That being said, I know of good stories. I know of people for whom transition was relatively seamless, through their experience. Unfortunately, that is the minority. There are good programs. It's the access to the programs that is difficult.

One reason that access is difficult is that for post-traumatic stress disorder, one of the symptoms is a sense of being overwhelmed, especially with administrative burdens. As an example, even to join you here today, the bureaucratic process was significant. It's overwhelming for many.

For me to access my email at Veterans Affairs Canada, I can count the number of steps. At one point, it was up to 16 steps. I think we're down to nine right now. I have to click nine different things just to read an email. Things like that are simply overwhelming for many. That's one of the examples of where we can do better.

The majority of veterans I come across who are injured and who should be making claims at VAC are not. It's because either they've heard stories or they tried and were instantly overwhelmed, which was also my experience the very first time I tried to make a claim. It was just overwhelming and I popped out of the system.

One question I have for anybody in the committee who might know is this: What percentage of Veterans Affairs' claims are made via service officers? Service officers tend to be volunteers at Legions or various veteran organizations that act as an ambassador between the veteran and Veterans Affairs Canada. It's really unfortunate that they're even necessary, but they are. Because of that sense of being overwhelmed, service officers are used to navigating Veterans Affairs Canada. The fact that this is required is alarming. It shouldn't be like that, and it shows the barrier to entry. Most of us can't do it ourselves. We need help just to navigate the system.

There are numerous fixes. There are a lot of good ideas that I hope I'm asked about. My show is an aggregate for healing modalities and different avenues towards help, tools and resources. I'm the guy. I'm probably the number one expert in the country for healing resources, because that's what my show has done in over 317 episodes, yet Veterans Affairs has never called me to say, “Hey, let's talk.” Maybe you can use me as a resource. I would love to work with Veterans Affairs to do a series on what they offer and how it benefits the veteran community so that people can better understand what VAC is and how they can help.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Meincke.

Now let's go to Helmets to Hardhats with Major-General Paul Bury.

You have five minutes for your statement.

[Major-General, Retired) Paul Bury (Director, Helmets to Hardhats]

Good morning. I'd like to thank you, Mr. Chair, and the members of this committee for the opportunity to speak with you today about veterans' transition issues. As a veteran myself, I know how important the committee's work is, and I applaud you all for your efforts. Like many veterans, I look forward to the results of the committee's work and the various impacts it will have across the veteran community.

Today I'm speaking on behalf of Helmets to Hardhats, or H2H Canada. H2H is a national non-profit organization funded in part by the construction industry, supported by government and staffed by both military and industry veterans. H2H focuses on assisting armed forces veterans, serving reservists and members of the Canadian cadet organizations in finding rewarding civilian career opportunities in Canada's unionized building and construction industry.

Networked across the country, H2H has deep connections with trade union locals and their affiliated contractors. H2H connects registered participants with apprenticeship and employment opportunities in Canada's building trades. Skilled trades apprenticeship programs provide veterans with the training and qualifications needed to achieve journeyperson status in over 60 occupations.

H2H provides professional and personalized services to registered participants by guiding military members as they transition to a new career and by assisting unions and employers in their search for potential employees. H2H opens doors for union memberships and benefits, including training and employment mobility across Canada.

When I appeared in front of this committee a little over a year ago, I spoke in general terms about the H2H program and the opportunities provided to Canada's veteran and military-connected community. I also discussed how our services are increasingly being sought out by veterans, including women, indigenous and other under-represented veterans. I'd like to assure the committee that this remains the case, with H2H continuing to see incremental positive demand for our services. In 2023, H2H referred 365 veterans to skilled trades apprenticeships with our building trades union partners all across the country.

Helmets to Hardhats continues to update its services to remain relevant and to ensure that we serve the veteran community in the most efficient and cost-effective manner. Through a grant from the Government of Ontario, we've been able to remove barriers to occupational success for veterans in Ontario by providing free safety training courses on such issues as working in confined spaces, working at heights and elevated work platforms. We're also able to provide free apprenticeship starter kits to our clients that include items such as hard hats, hearing and eye protection, safety boots and high-visibility clothing. These are all free of charge, saving the veteran approximately $500 each and ensuring that they are able to participate in the construction sector regardless of their personal financial situation. Ideally, we'll be able to roll out these initiatives across the rest of the country over the next few years. These initiatives coupled with the zero cost to veterans for our services remove barriers to occupational success.

We continue to hear testimonials from many participating veterans about the positive impact that the H2H program has had on their individual and family circumstances. Leaving the armed forces for a civilian career can be daunting for many veterans. Many H2H registered veterans contact us prior to leaving the armed forces. H2H works with them and the union locals to ensure they have career options and, ideally, a confirmed apprenticeship start date as they transition. Working with community-based, veteran-focused organizations such as H2H allows veterans and their families to make that transition to civilian life with significantly less stress regarding potential civilian employment.

H2H believes that community-based organizations such as ours can play a large part in complementing government veteran programs as we collectively help veterans transition to civilian life. Working with Canada's building trades unions, H2H will continue to provide timely and relevant services to Canada's veterans and military-connected individuals seeking a career in the construction and related industries.

That concludes my remarks. I look forward to the committee's questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bury.

I want to thank all three of you for your opening statements and for your service. We have with us a major-general and a corporal.

Now we're going to start the first round of questions of six minutes each. After that, I will calculate how long the second round is going to be. You can split your time.

I'll start with Mr. Richards for six minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to each of you for your contributions today and for your service to our country.

I'll start with you, Mr. Meincke. You talked briefly about your experience in having to scratch and claw, as I think you said, for five years to get the benefits you needed for what you're dealing with. You mentioned your podcast. You speak to veterans quite frequently on your podcast, and certainly otherwise.

Can you tell me whether the experience you had of having to scratch and claw for five years is fairly typical?

[Mark Meincke]

It is. First of all, we're running blind. When I was facilitating a peer support group, I was the guy in front of the class with half a dozen regulars. Even with that group, we still didn't really know what the heck was going on, what was available or what we could access.

One of the reasons is that the names of programs are changing all the time. There are adjustments to them, and you can't keep track. The only way to have any clue.... I liken it to a bunch of sixth graders teaching each other sex education. They really don't know what they're talking about. That's what it's like trying to navigate VAC. It's constantly changing, and just as soon as you have a relationship with a caseworker, they quit or get fired, and then you have a new caseworker. I think I've been through four or maybe five since 2017.

There's just no way to keep track of what's going on and what's available—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I'm sorry to interrupt, Mark. We've heard many times about the inability to have a caseworker you can work and follow through with.

One of the other things we've often heard about is the challenge, especially when someone first leaves the armed forces, of getting access to a doctor. We often hear that a lot of doctors seem to be quite reluctant to take on veterans as patients given all the paperwork they have to deal with for Veterans Affairs. Is that something you've heard about from the veterans you speak with?

[Mark Meincke]

It's true. I've heard that and I've experienced it. Right now, I can't find a family doctor. I'm looking for one if anybody knows of one around Stettler.

The way the system works is you need a note from the doctor or a referral from an MD to access anything. If you want to see a chiropractor, or anyone at all, for service-related injuries, you have to have a doctor sign off on it, and good luck getting a doctor who will sign off on you seeing a chiropractor or getting float therapy. It's an almost impossible barrier.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Sometimes these things that seem quite simple aren't that simple for whatever reason, and they need to be made more simple.

I want to ask you about something I've often heard, and I'm sure you have as well, which is that Veterans Affairs Canada grew old with its veterans. In other words, when we talk about veterans who fought in World War I and World War II, I think generally what we hear is that those veterans felt like they were pretty well served by Veterans Affairs, and it kind of grew older with them in order to meet their needs as they were growing older.

One thing we hear now is that, obviously, the average veteran is quite a bit younger, especially after Afghanistan. Meeting the needs of those younger veterans—the very different needs that exist when someone is trying to move on with the rest of their life and raise a family, deal with all these things, find meaningful employment, etc.—is something that VAC has not been so good at.

Can you tell us a little bit about what you're hearing from some of the younger veterans you speak with, particularly the Afghanistan veterans? Is that an accurate picture of what you're hearing as well?

[Mark Meincke]

I think so. Just to throw the Legion under the bus for a moment—even though that wasn't part of your question, I think it's a good example—at the last Remembrance Day ceremony I was at in Stettler, they were talking about World War I and World War II, and that was it. They didn't even mention Korea, the Balkans—where I was—or Afghanistan.

There are still a lot of people within the bureaucracy who don't even see us as veterans. They don't consider us to be veterans, and that's the problem right there. I would imagine there's some overlap in Veterans Affairs Canada. Even with my classification—I served in Croatia during the genocide in 1994, smack dab in the middle of the war—I'm not considered a war veteran because I was with the UN. It was a “special duty area”. I think that's what they call it. There are different classifications of veterans that entitle you to different levels of benefits depending on where you served. It's like not calling Korea a war. Well, it was a war, and I certainly served in a war zone, but it's one of the challenges—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Can I interrupt you there? You mentioned Korea. Veterans fought for and were eventually given that wartime service designation, but there are many veterans, you included, whose service isn't considered wartime. We often hear about the Gulf War or Afghanistan, which are referred to as wars generally by the entire Canadian population, including by Veterans Affairs, yet they're not considered that way when it comes to benefits and services. Is that something you'd like to comment on?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

You have only 30 seconds, Mr. Meincke. Please go ahead.

[Mark Meincke]

A war is a war. Whether you're serving as a UN peacekeeper or you fought in World War II, it's still a combat role. My friend Tommy Anderson lost both legs. Mark Isfeld was blown to bits and lost his life. I personally hit a tripwire. Other people hit landmines with their carrier.

A war is a war is a war, and calling what I did a “special duty area” as opposed to.... There shouldn't be different strata. We were all in it up to our ears, so we should be treated equally.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Meincke.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Meincke.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

We'll go to Mr. Miao for six minutes.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today, and of course, thank you for your service.

I'll direct my first question to Mr. Lopresti.

Thank you for coming here all the way from B.C. I understand that you're here in an individual capacity, but at the same time, you are also the officer in command at the transition centre in Vancouver for CAF. Could you share with us, as a committee, what kind of transition services veterans in B.C. are receiving at this time?