Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 18th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 12 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108 and the motion adopted on September 18, 2025, the committee is meeting to continue its study on suicide prevention among veterans.

Before we welcome our witnesses, for people who are viewing I would like to provide a trigger warning. We will be discussing experiences related to suicide and grief. This may be triggering for viewers with similar experiences. If you feel distressed or need help, please advise our clerk.

For all witnesses and members of Parliament, it is important to recognize that these are difficult discussions. Also, for our witnesses, if you do not feel comfortable at any point, please let us know. We can pause our committee for you.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would ask all in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. You will also notice a QR code on the card, which links to a short awareness video.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules for witnesses and members to follow. Before speaking, please wait for me to recognize you by name. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to turn on your microphone, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. Finally, I have a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. That said, I do not believe any members are participating in the meeting via Zoom.

Thank you for your understanding.

I would like to welcome our witnesses. As individuals, we have Mr. Gordon Hurley, Madame Marie-Noël Duhaime, Mr. Justin McKay, Mr. Darren Simons and Mr. David Bona, and from Seven Edge Success Inc., Ernie Wouters.

We will start by inviting each witness to deliver their opening remarks for a period of about five minutes. As you can see, there are a few of you, so please try to stay within our five-minute mark.

Once all our witnesses have given their opening remarks, the rest of the meeting will be dedicated to a series of questions and answers with the members of the committee.

Mr. Gordon Hurley, the floor is yours for five minutes, please.

[Gordon Hurley, Veterans Mental Health Advocate, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My French is not very good, I'm sorry.

I'll do this in English.

Thank you for this opportunity.

In 2015 I decided to cut my wrists on a course at Canadian Forces Base Wainwright, Alberta. Immediately, as soon as I drew blood, I knew it was a mistake. I got myself a course vehicle and drove myself to the hospital. When I got to the hospital, the nurse told me they would have to call the base, call the police, get my chain of command involved and bring up the suicide attempt through the chain of command. I was in the special forces at the time. I said I was working on kit. I smoothed it over as much as I could: I'm special forces. I slipped. I would never do that. Blah blah blah.

They believed it. The next day, I went on course. I finished that course. For the next five years, I used suicide and suicidal ideation as a coping mechanism for mental health.

I spent 15 years in the Canadian Armed Forces, half as an airborne light infantry reconnaissance patrolman and the other half as a special operator and joint terminal attack controller. I was deployed to Africa, Iraq and Afghanistan and trained globally, not only on the leading edge of combat operations but in the highest echelons of our military headquarters.

My name is Gordon Hurley. I am a retired veteran and I am a veteran advocate specifically for psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. Right now, Veterans Affairs Canada is not fulfilling the requirement of giving veterans the care they deserve with ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. Veterans Affairs will pay for ketamine, for the drug itself, but they will not pay for psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy.

It's in the name. It's “assisted” therapy. It's psychedelic-assisted therapy. It is not being covered by Veterans Affairs at this time. We're putting veterans at extreme risk while in very, very fragile mental states.

I would like to let you know that in Australia not only is it legal, but on October 31, the Australian government's Department of Veterans' Affairs funded psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy within its own military for veterans. That's MDMA and psilocybin.

Our government is cutting approximately $4 billion over the next four years for medical cannabis. Okay. That's in line with market value, but what are we going to do with this money? Are we just going to absorb it, and it becomes another talking point about how fiscally responsible we are as a government, or are we going to keep that money within Veterans Affairs proper and put it to research programs or new initiatives that our peer nations are well surpassing us on?

Veterans Affairs needs some help. Take our hands. All of us on this panel are trying very hard to make this loud and clear, and for you to listen to the veteran. Because I've been surrounded by the people I have in the last couple of years navigating the charity and veterans sector, my team has come up with something called the veterans accelerated access and research program.

The veterans accelerated access and research program proposes a structured model for safe, regulated access to psychedelic-assisted therapy. The pilot program—not study—would operate under both provincial and federal frameworks, leveraging such provincial leadership as Alberta’s progress in regulated psychedelic-assisted therapy. We would be able to integrate this with a federalized pathway administered by Health Canada. This collaboration would align with Veterans Affairs Canada’s ongoing interest in identifying a lawful mechanism for accessing psychedelic therapy and would also strengthen intergovernmental co-operation on innovative health solutions.

The proposed pilot would begin with 10 to 15 participants receiving MDMA-assisted psychotherapy at an approved clinic in Alberta under the supervision of a multidisciplinary team, including a psychiatrist, a nurse practitioner and a psychologist. This treatment would adhere to rigorous standards of safety, ethics and clinical care. Future phases would expand to include additional compounds with therapeutic potential, such as psilocybin and ibogaine, pending regulatory approval and oversight.

Following completion, a systematic evaluation would capture feedback from participants, clinicians and administrators while analyzing safety, feasibility and efficacy data. A retrospective research review would then assess treatment outcomes and inform future program expansion to additional provinces.

This process ensures that the program remains accountable, evidence-based and aligned with the highest standards of medical and ethical practices. This initiative directly addresses the inefficiencies and delays currently associated with the special access program and the section 56 exemptions. By streamlining access through a regulated pilot, the veterans accelerated access and research program aims to deliver timely, effective and ethically sound care for veterans in critical need. This scientific evidence will guide future policy and improve long-term outcomes for those who have served Canada with honour.

I came here to tell, sure, a little story. You guys can hear about me more. You can go on the Internet and google me and you can get in-depth podcasts. I came here with a solution, so please take our hand.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hurley.

Ms. Duhaime, you now have the floor for five minutes.

[Marie-Noël Duhaime, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The first glass is never the problem.

O Canada, our home and native land.

O Canada, our home and native land.

Ottawa is built on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people, a nation that has paid for the ultimate violence and has managed to save some souls and save its people by tolerating the invaders: us.

Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee. Thank you, brothers and sisters in arms. Thanks to my dad and my big sister. I thank you lovely people for offering me your help. I have been asking to be heard for over 30 years. Ms. Gaudreau has arranged for it to happen.

Leave no man behind.

But I am a woman.

Lest we forget: Let's honour the service and sacrifice of all souls who have served in wars, conflict, and peace operations. Vigilamus pro te.

Thank you, dad and mom, for passing on your knowledge and your love of Latin to me.

We stand on guard for thee. The anthem changed recently to include all of us, to be more inclusive. The anthem started in Quebec in 1880. How many years did it take to realize that women were also worth it?

I think it was in 2018. It was on Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day, 1880. Two thousand eighteen, one thousand eighty, it's "mathemagic".

I'm still cold. I'm going to keep my coat on, because it's really cold outside.

You're my lady in red.

No, I'm going to take my coat off, because I'm hot all of a sudden.

I'm starting to accept help. My scarf is mauve. It's the scarf of hope. Thank you, Josée. Mauve is important.

Do you have your handkerchief, dad?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have one here.

[Marie-Noël Duhaime]

No, I want my dad's.

I put him on the spot, but he is still there for me.

In Latin, there are two words for "handkerchief". The first is mappa, but I don't remember the other one. There is a little one, that you use to blow your nose, to keep your germs to yourself; COVID‑19, we know about that. But there is another word that means a beautiful wrap. Those Romans were crazy, but not that crazy. They brought their handkerchief with them, and their hosts wrapped their gift in it. Every person left with something.

How much time do I have left, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

You have gone a bit over the five minutes allowed.

[Marie-Noël Duhaime]

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I'll allow you a few minutes more so you can finish your remarks.

[Marie-Noël Duhaime]

If there is time at the end, I will come back to it. For now, I will let the others continue. I will be respectful of everyone's speaking time. Their time is important, as is mine.

I have had my platform. If you want to know more, you know where to find me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Are you sure, Ms. Duhaime?

[Marie-Noël Duhaime]

Yes, ma'am.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Okay. I just wanted to be sure. Thank you.

Mr. McKay, you have five minutes, please.

[Justin McKay, Veteran, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I won't take five minutes. I'll keep my remarks short.

I joined the reserves at 17 years old. Before I was 18, I became one of the 19,000 members of the military sexual misconduct lawsuit. I was sexually assaulted by an older soldier while I was sleeping at night.

I went on to serve two tours with 2nd Battalion, PPCLI in Bosnia. If I had kept drinking the way I was drinking up until 2011, I wouldn't be sitting here giving you these statements right now.

Right now, I'm the sergeant-at-arms at the Royal Canadian Legion in Amherst, Nova Scotia. In 2023, I hope I helped some Afghan veterans with some healing by unveiling an Afghan memorial in Nova Scotia.

I, too, almost took my own life, and I would have if it hadn't been for another service member helping me out. That's why I implore you to take all of our information—Mr. Hurley's information, Mr. Simons' information, Mr. Bona's information and Mr. Wouter's information—to Veterans Affairs.

I don't think that cutting the benefits that we get—i.e., the shockwave therapy that some veterans get for chronic pain—is a good avenue to go down, because then you're going to push veterans to another avenue unless you give them something else to take away that pain.

I implore you to heed the recommendations at this committee and take them to VAC.

That's all I'll say. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you, Mr. McKay.

For five minutes, we have Mr. Simons.

[Darren Simons, As an Individual]

Good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today.

I'm an army brat and a veteran, having served just over two years in the Canadian Army and more than 33 years in the RCMP. I have lived in six provinces, one territory and Germany. With the RCMP, I served in 10 detachments throughout Alberta, the Northwest Territories and Saskatchewan. Many of those detachments were limited-duration posts and isolated posts.

My wife, Tracy, and I have been married since 1999. Our son, Nathan, is studying to be a chiropractor. I stay active and volunteer regularly. The physical and psychological challenges faced by veterans are also faced by their families. Spouses, children and loved ones see the changes, the pain, the outbursts and the silences. They are more perceptive than we think. They suffer too. Retirement or leaving the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or the Canadian Armed Forces doesn't erase these challenges; sometimes it makes them worse.

I did not know I could apply for veterans benefits until I had over 10 years in the RCMP. Many RCMP members and Canadian Armed Forces members don't even consider themselves veterans because they did not deploy. This lack of awareness is an education gap that must be addressed. If we were treated properly earlier, we would be healthier now.

My early experiences with Veterans Affairs were positive. My first claims were approved, but when I learned I was disabled, I panicked. I was afraid it was going to affect my career. Thankfully, a VAC employee reassured me. I thought, finally, an organization that is here to help me. Unfortunately, that feeling didn't last.

After applying for a psychological condition, I was denied. I was told to wait until the RCMP had completed their investigation, a process that took over nine years. Upon attending a hearing in 2020, I was finally approved and advised that my benefits would go back three years. I was told I should have appealed earlier. I was following the direction of VAC. I was waiting. Why did someone not follow up with me and tell me that?

For me and many veterans, it's not as much what we saw and did as it is how we were treated during and afterwards. Amongst many Veterans Affairs' clients, it is perceived that initial applications are often denied and appeals are often successful. It makes many veterans feel like VAC expects you to give up. One veteran told me that I need the cheat codes, like a video game, to figure out how to win.

Each delay, each denial, erodes trust and hope. I had a claim initially denied and when I phoned and requested further information, I determined that it was because they received the wrong X-ray. I was denied mileage, and when I called to inquire why I was denied mileage, I was told that I filled out the wrong form. Why not provide more input as to why there was a denial? Why not make it easier to get help, instead of harder?

I paid out of pocket for psychological care because Blue Cross and VAC would only reimburse part of the cost, even though the RCMP had been paying my psychologist in full when I was serving. I was told to find someone less expensive. After much back-and-forth trying to find a workaround, I gave up. Fortunately for me, my psychologist found a workaround. However, I was out hundreds of dollars. I can afford it, but many veterans cannot. I know one who pays to take a taxi for treatment and has stopped trying to claim for it because it's too frustrating.

There are good people working for Veterans Affairs, but as my father said when I was a young child playing sports, seven “attaboys” get wiped out by one “ah, crap”. The negative experiences overshadow the good ones.

VAC and Blue Cross need to communicate better. Veterans shouldn't be passed back and forth between systems. We need one point of contact, someone who checks in, follows up and helps navigate the maze.

VAC should also be proactive. No one has ever asked if my wife or son needed support, even though they've lived through the same struggles I have. At a retreat funded by the Legion—not VAC—I was asked to bring my wife. This is where we met Ernie. It was a breakthrough for me and my wife for different reasons. That support worked and it helped my wife more than it helped me—which helped me.

I often ask why we are all treated the same, regardless of need or circumstance. If someone slammed a door right now in this room, we would all see, feel, hear and experience what transpired differently. That's because we are all different.

While I was preparing my speaking notes, my wife asked me a question that I still can't answer: How many people need to die before they get it?

People need help. When you're at your lowest, everything feels too hard and you want to give up. For some of us, it's just a financial loss. For others, it's their lives.

I truly hope this committee not only listens but also hears what veterans are saying. We're not looking for handouts; we're looking for help, fairness and respect. We want to heal, to be better for ourselves, our families, our communities and our country. We are the ones most likely to continue to serve. You can't afford to lose us.

Thank you for your time and for hearing the voices of those who have served, their families and their supporters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Mr. Simons.

For five minutes, we'll have Mr. Bona.

[David Bona, As an Individual]

Thank you.

My name is Dave Bona. I tripped and stumbled and fell into a role nine years ago when I discovered I was poisoned by the anti-malaria drug mefloquine. In my search for answers I inadvertently became a point of contact for injured veterans looking for assistance and very quickly I realized there's a quite a large problem.

I was on social media and I was watching the suicides come across my feed again and again, and it was like, someone's got to do something about this. I started going on veteran Facebook groups, chat groups etc., and talking about my own journey and my own symptoms and stuff like that. Whenever I'd get veterans commenting on it, I would literally pounce on them and would end up creating a situation where I would get these guys on the phone and I would educate people on their injury and point them in the proper direction to receive help.

Here comes the hard part: I started having the families reach out to me. I had to develop a technique for dealing with these people because it was suicide and there was a lot of strong emotion involved. I developed a system where, when I got the information from the individual, I would track down someone this individual had deployed with, to find out if they had taken mefloquine and, more importantly, if they had been having adverse reactions to the drug.

Once I established that, I reached out to someone who had intimate contact with this individual in the last two weeks of their lives. Then I could see what their state was, their mental health state. With that information, I was able to draw conclusions on whether they were poisoned by mefloquine and if their suicide was attributable to mefloquine poisoning.

I'm not a doctor. I've lived with suicide. I know what CLP tastes like. I sat in back bunkers with the muzzle of a rifle in my mouth, clicking the safety off and taking up the slack on the trigger too many times to recall. I have attempted suicide three times. Each time I had someone step in to stop me. I'm very lucky to be here right now.

If you have any questions on mefloquine, I have all the answers. I went to all the conferences. I talked to the experts. I immersed myself in it.

Thank you very much for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Mr. Bona, thank you very much.

Mr. Wouters, you have five minutes, please.

[Ernie Wouters, International Trauma Specialist and Consultant, Seven Edge Success Inc.]

Good afternoon, Madam Chair, members of the committee and fellow Canadians.

Before I make a few comments—I have provided speaking notes—I want to make a number of defining comments for you. Before I do that, I want to make it clear that I honour and respect all of my peers and fellow mental health servants in this field. Their value and contributions are not the issue I'm discussing. What I am discussing is.... I'm a professional engineer. I have a master's in psychology and a number of other credentials. My evaluation is based on the critique of the process. That's what's most important here, so I want to just underscore that.

Twenty-five years ago, I had a defining moment at an international police conference as the police chaplain in our city, when the keynote speaker got up and asked if we realized that every year in North America, a police officer will take his or her life. At that moment I did not know that, but as an engineer, I couldn't help but grapple with the question of why.

Since that conference and for the four or five years previous—almost 30 years now—I've sought to discover the enigma of suicide, for which I have an answer for you today.

Part of this, I've devoted to the statistics, which I'm sure you've all heard. Almost every hour, just in North America, a military personnel will take his or her life. That's every hour. That's terrible and it's shocking, but every 43 seconds, globally, someone's taking their life. We often talk about there being no silver bullet and I'd like to argue that I believe suicide is a silver bullet.

I'm going to describe how it gets there. When I think about these statistics, they're not just statistics; they're souls. I am specifically talking about the soul because that is the breaking point that a person gets to when they decide to take their life. When you think about this, the soul is the one part in the human design that's absolutely missing from psychology and psychiatry. It's ironic that five letters of both of those terms in the Greek mean “study of the soul”, yet neither of them address the soul when it comes to trauma.

I'm here to declare that the soul is actually the missing link in resolving trauma. When you think of science.... From all of creation to present day, there is a triad formula. I'll make it simple with the fire triangle. Most people are familiar.... You need oxygen, combustibles and an ignition source. I can stand here for quite a bit discussing the science of how that triad exists absolutely everywhere.

As an engineer, when I'm trying to solve a fatal failure of some design, the first thing I consider is the materials, the structure and what's available for the design. From studying suicide, what do we have available to overcome? We have a soul, a brain and a body, which is the triad I'm talking about.

If I was to get each of you to take a pen and draw three or four triangles on your paper, I would say, at the peak, I want you to put the soul. On the bottom left-hand corner, I want you to put the brain and at the bottom right-hand corner, put the body. This is our design. It's perfect, by the way.

Say you go to a medical doctor and are asked the question that they're asking, they would ask where it hurts. Of the three components of design, which of those three is the medical doctor addressing? It's the body.

Let's go to psychology now. Psychology talks about behaviour. I have a master's in psychology. These are my peers. I care about them desperately, but it's not a science and neither is psychiatry. The fact that they don't meet these three criteria on the triangle.... They are addressing the brain. The soul's left out. The body's mostly left out. For both psychology and psychiatry, they're dealing with one-third of the solution.

If I go into the theology component, they would deal with the soul, but now they're leaving out the brain and the body.

My point is that none of these approaches, even if I had all four practitioners in the room, could actually resolve trauma. The only way to solve trauma is.... Unresolved trauma is ultimately the number one issue that leads to suicide.

Where is the trauma occurring? It's occurring at the soul level. Trauma is an offence and that offence goes to the soul. The target of trauma is to degrade and dehumanize a person's self-value and self-worth. The system that is created has actually driven suicide by the nature of the way we treat or do not treat.

One day, I was driving my vehicle, and I phoned Dave Bona—because I worked with Dave. I said, “Dave, I just thought of something. I had an epiphany moment.” The epiphany moment was that, in wartime, strategy is torture. There are four components for a successful torture: mental anguish, physical anguish, emotional anguish and spiritual anguish. When you achieve those four, you will end up with death, and suicide is the answer.

That's the answer that people get to. Every day, our military—every second, every minute, every hour, 24/7—is under those four. Unresolved trauma leads to the majority of illnesses and diseases, and as a result of that, it includes mental illness. This is the missing link for resolving trauma: the soul. Neuroscience, near-death experiences.... All of these point at the fact that not only does the soul exist but also it exists beyond death, which means that in order for consciousness to be beyond death, you must have the constituents of a soul, which are your mind, emotions and free will.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Wrap up, Mr. Wouters, and then we'll start the questions.

You have 10 seconds, please.

[Ernie Wouters]

When I think about the primary drivers behind suicide, I see that the perfect storm absolutely is that unresolved trauma, number one. Number two is mind-altering drugs of all sorts. Number three is non-scientific models that cannot resolve trauma. Then there are the global trauma illiteracy and incompetence, and the continual retraumatization of family in systems.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Mr. Wouters.

[Ernie Wouters]

You're welcome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you for your courage in being here.

To those who have served, thank you for serving your country. I really appreciate your taking the time out of your very busy schedules to be with us today.

On this note, I will go to Mr. Richards for six minutes.