Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 20th, 2025

[Cameron Kowalski]

There's a complicated answer to that question, but recently, yes. This is across the board. This applies to not only the RCMP members, but the CAF members as well. The training was not designed for female members. It was put into place for male members. The equipment was designed for male members. I'm not suggesting that it dates back to 1873 and the “March West” for the RCMP, but it dates way back.

They adapted all of the equipment that was required to perform duties with the CAF and the RCMP to fit the female body. You can understand that there would be challenges and problems as a result of ill-fitting equipment that—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Sorry, but I must interrupt you. You're saying that the equipment provided to all women military members who went to Afghanistan or to other places wasn't adapted. Once again, the reality facing women was overlooked. I trust that the situation has indeed changed.

That said, what is being done about chronic pain?

You just said that poorly fitted equipment exacerbates their pain and, at some point, they can no longer tolerate it.

Isn't that the situation, Dr. Zacharias?

[Ramesh Zacharias]

Thank you. I will answer the question in English.

I recall a female veteran, from just outside Ottawa, whom I treated about five years ago. She was probably five-foot-one. She was an outstanding scuba diver and did training for CAF. She decided, during her service, that she wanted to be a rescue person. She was sent to North Bay, where she was given equipment, and the tanks were hitting the back of her calf throughout her service, so she ended up having chronic pain complications in both lower legs, because those tanks and the vest were designed for men, not for a five-foot female.

Could it have been avoided? Probably. Are they doing a better job today? I don't know—I saw her five years ago—but that was clearly equipment that was faulty for her. It was not adjusted for height. There's been evidence about shoulder injuries, with female veterans, because of the height of what they have to work with on the aircraft.

I think people are more sensitive today, but so much more needs to be done. These are people who sacrificed for us. The least we can do is give them equipment. Frankly, we have a moral obligation to treat them when they have suffered.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

As members of Parliament, we're extremely sensitive people. We want to do everything possible to change things. Ask any member of the House. We all want the best for our constituents.

The issue is a lack of clear political will. You contribute to the decisions, but you need to shake things up and ask yourself whether it really matters. The final decision comes from so high up in the hierarchy that, when we look at the percentage of people who manage to receive care, we're relieved to see that we may have succeeded in helping 16% of the people. We say that we'll help the others on an ad hoc basis, by giving them money and assistance to ease our conscience. Many must have trouble sleeping. This must change.

Since I have only a few seconds left, I would like to turn to Ms. Hatcher.

Ms. Hatcher, I fully understand your feelings about being abandoned after you became a widow.

You were abandoned after your spouse died by suicide.

Is that right?

[Amanda Hatcher]

I want to reiterate that I had great support from the 417 Squadron in Cold Lake, and the whole base. I stayed there with my daughter until July 2016, and then we were given the last move with the military. It was after that that I did prevail on some services when I moved here to Greenwood. To be honest, it was like, “Now that you're a widow, you're no longer part of the military,” though I received my late husband's pension—Canada pension—at the time.

I started the process of seeing a social worker, and she and I, after a lot of hours and tears, opened up a VAC inquiry into my late husband's death, because I knew it was service-related. I won that case, thankfully. It wasn't about the money. It was to honour him, because he served his country. As a widow, it's so hard and difficult, because it's still with you that you are a part of the military, yet you're not a part of the military. To be honest, even this year—forgive me for saying this—I just didn't attend a Remembrance Day ceremony, because it's so hard. It's so devastating, especially even sometimes hearing the bugle play. It brings you back to that moment.

It's been a challenge when dealing with Veterans Affairs as, of course, being a widow, I don't have case managers or a service rep. I do still deal with OSISS, from Edmonton, for personal reasons. The lady I deal with at OSISS, I have to commend; she has been excellent. She has been a great support. However, still, as a widow, you are.... I don't want to say “forgotten”, because I still have so many friends who are in the Canadian Armed Forces and ones who have now released. I still consider those a part of our family. Yes, becoming a widow, it appears like we are forgotten and we are told to just move on with our life, basically.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I just added my two and a half minutes of speaking time, with all due respect to my colleagues.

That's all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.

Mr. Richards, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Thank you.

I actually wanted to pick up where Madame Gaudreau just left off, Amanda, if I may.

I'm still not sure I'm clear. Following the death of your husband, what help did Veterans Affairs offer you?

[Amanda Hatcher]

At the time, I was not dealing with Veterans Affairs first, when Shawn passed away. As I said, I started the process with a social worker in 2016, and I won my case in 2017.

Honestly, there has not been a great deal of support as a widow through Veterans Affairs. There's no mental health when you lose someone through suicide. It's a lasting impact. I always say that I spent 18 years in nursing and six years as a paramedic EMA, and nothing in those two occupations prepared me for the death of my husband by suicide.

Even now, it's a challenge. As a widow, when you call the 1-800 number at Veterans Affairs, you may get someone who's really good, and then at other times—and I don't want to be rude in saying this—you may not. It's basic information, and they're not equipped to handle widows and the situations that we are going through as widows. As widows, we don't have case managers.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

That's what I was just going to ask you.

Wouldn't it make more sense for you to have someone dedicated to deal with, so that you wouldn't have to take the chance that you might not get the right person who understands what you're going through, or that you might have to retell the story of what you've dealt with over and over again?

[Amanda Hatcher]

It would definitely make more sense, but unfortunately that's not the way it happens. I could call Veterans Affairs today and speak to a lady. Tomorrow, I could call Veterans Affairs and speak to a gentleman. What the lady tells me today versus what the gentleman might tell me tomorrow would be two different stories. You get off the phone, and you're more confused than when you called the first time, because it's not the same information given to you. It may be the same question you're asking, but you're getting two or three different responses, so it's more confusing.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

I guess it would be fair to say that you would identify with what Mr. Meincke described in his comments about all the hoops that he had to jump through. Ultimately, it sounds like there are programs that exist, but getting to them is almost impossible.

Would that be your experience as well?

[Amanda Hatcher]

Definitely. I can definitely understand what he is saying. When Shawn was alive, he dealt with Veterans Affairs for a shoulder injury. I can recall times when he would call Veterans Affairs for something quite minor compared to mental health, and he was jumping through hoops. I've definitely felt as a widow when I've called Veterans Affairs that, many times, there are many hoops and no satisfaction.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Okay.

I have a question that would be both for you and for Mark.

What recommendations would you make in terms of how Veterans Affairs should improve that experience—in your case, Amanda, as a widow, and in your case, Mark, as a veteran? How could Veterans Affairs improve that experience so that you're not having to jump through all those hoops?

Whoever would like to go first is fine.

[Amanda Hatcher]

Thank you. I'll go first.

Personally speaking, as a widow, there are no policies with Veterans Affairs for widows, as far as I know. They're not equipped to handle us. That could be a major change in the system. I understand that when a veteran calls, they're a veteran, and they were a military member, but my veteran is now deceased.

When you call, getting 10 or 12 different people every time you call contributes to the frustration. As soon as we, as widows, are prevailing upon Veterans Affairs services, maybe it would be a good thing to assign us a case manager, and maybe even in our home province.

I was told that I had a service worker in Halifax—I don't think it was called “case manager”—and, no disrespect, it was a gentleman. I was told that we were supposed to receive four phone calls a year, basically like a check-in. I did not even know that I had this gentleman assigned to me. I was told this by another gentleman, and then I was told, “Well, he's off on mental health leave, so now you have a lady.” I did receive an email from this lady saying, “No, no, I don't have you.”

It's the confusion. It's the unknown. Do better. If I can say that I was told I had this lady, and now she's telling me that she doesn't have me and to call the 1-800 number if I need anything.... I first used the 1-800 number, the mental health line, when my husband passed away. It was in the nighttime and I was told, “Unless you're suicidal.... We only take suicidal clients at night, and I don't have time to talk to you, only 15 minutes.” I won't tell you some other things I've been told, because it's just too hard, but there are things like that.

Assigning us a caseworker is the most important aspect that you could do for a widow.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Hatcher.

Mr. Meincke, you have 30 seconds to answer Mr. Richards' question, please.

[Mark Meincke]

It's a tough question. Everybody I know who has been in the system goes through caseworkers or service officers—or whatever you're going to call them—like crazy. I think I went through five in two years.

I don't know what the national average is for employee retention, but I'm pretty sure that Veterans Affairs is below that national average. I think that's where you have to start. Find out why it's such a toxic work environment that nobody wants to work there for more than three months. Figure that out. Get some HR professionals or something. Figure out why they hate working there and what training is required to get them to do their jobs better and to empower them to be able to deal with us better.

We're not easy to deal with when we're hot. We're a lot. We're a handful. For them to not take that personally requires training. All the hoops are what makes us hot in the first place. Figure that out, and the proper training, and figure out why in the world it's such a horrible workplace that causes staff turnover.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Mr. Meincke.

Mr. Casey, you have five minutes, please.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to start with the witnesses from the Chronic Pain Centre of Excellence.

I want to ask you a question about the present state of treatment and research in chronic pain and then talk a bit about what's on the horizon. Could you address what is the current state of research with respect to chronic pain and what are the most effective treatments or strategies today?

[Cameron Kowalski]

I can start with that, Mr. Casey.

It's a very topical question. I'm going to speak generally in relation to chronic pain and suicidality, and also speak about what we know and what we are doing currently at the Chronic Pain Centre of Excellence.

We recently conducted our priority-setting process through the James Lind Alliance, which basically identifies what we're going to be studying for the next three to five years. It's an important milestone in our organization's history, after we've just celebrated our five-year anniversary of inception.

The 2025 veteran-led priority-setting process utilized our advisory council for veterans. There are 15 of them. They represent what we do, and they identify what is to be studied each year. This year, we rank the priorities as gold, silver and bronze. Our gold-level stream of research this year is going to be specifically on the correlation between chronic pain and suicidality. Within that context, the outcomes or the objectives are to explore the relationships between chronic pain and suicidality in veterans, to understand the impacts on families and caregivers, to evaluate interventions at clinical system and policy levels and then, finally, to inform suicide prevention and policy strategies.

Therefore, it is high on the level of research that we're going to be conducting over the next three to five years. However, again, with research, it takes time to answer the questions that are being researched.

That's speaking to the topic itself on suicidality. I'll have Dr. Zacharias answer the part about the chronic pain research that is on the generalities.

Thank you.

[Ramesh Zacharias]

Thank you very much for your question.

I think what we have tried to do is look at the life after service studies program and talk to veterans. When we were awarded the centre of excellence, I decided to go from coast to coast. I started in Victoria and ultimately ended up in Newfoundland. COVID was in the middle of it, so it was in two phases. I met with veterans and their families. I told them that I was the custodian of their centre and asked them what they wanted me to do. They were pretty clear. God bless them. There's one thing about working with veterans. I've treated probably a thousand veterans since I went to McMaster, and they will tell you exactly what they're thinking. God bless them, I love looking after them. There are no filters. They tell you exactly what's going on.

We decided to empower them to direct us, and we created the advisory council for veterans. I think our chair, Hélène Le Scelleur, testified here last month. They, along with their family members now, tell us what is a priority for them, so this is a priority process that's evidence-based. It came out of the U.K., and that's what we implement.

We looked at the ACVA report that came out in June 2024. We have decided to take some of those items and fund the research around it. Most veterans get care in the public system, not from DND and CAF. They get some care from VAC. We're trying to raise the bar for civilian women, along with female veterans, to make their health issues a priority.

We will be listing the 20 projects that we're going to fund over the next three to five years. So far, we have funded over 60 projects involving almost every university but certainly every province. We have one criterion: We will not fund you unless you have a veteran co-PI. Then you get evidence from the people you're trying to serve, as opposed to you telling them what they need.

It has been an incredible journey for us. I learn from the veteran advisory council. They completely decide what we're going to do in the next five years, and they decided for the last five.

Thank you so much for your question.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you for your answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Mr. Casey.

This will end our round of questions.

Mrs. Hatcher, Mr. Meincke, Dr. Zacharias and Mr. Kowalski, thank you very much to all of you for taking the time to come and share your stories. I want to say, on behalf of this committee, thank you for your service to our country.

Is it the will of the committee to adjourn the meeting?

[Voices]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

The meeting is adjourned.