Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2025

[Cyd Courchesne]

Yes, we have that data. We have been collecting it as part of studies we have been conducting since 1975. These studies are conducted jointly with the Canadian Armed Forces and Statistics Canada. That is why we know that this rate is higher than in the Canadian population in general: Among female veterans, the observed risk of suicide is 1.8 times higher than among women in the general population; among male veterans, it is 1.4 times higher than in the general population. These figures have remained constant since 1975. That is the big challenge. We need to identify the trend and the causes. We know that the causes of suicide are multifactorial. There is not just one factor, there are several.

Although we have these figures, we cannot investigate the exact causes, because some of these veterans may not be clients of Veterans Affairs Canada. These people live in their communities, and it is thanks to Statistics Canada that we can do this triangulation.

That said, I can assure you that this rate did not increase between 1975 and 2016, the last year for which we have figures, I believe.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Okay.

So after the war in Afghanistan, the numbers remained constant. We say we have great respect for our veterans. How is it, then, that we have not been able to reduce the suicide rate and take the necessary preventive measures?

Can you explain why?

[Cyd Courchesne]

I thank the member for her question.

Prevention is the big challenge. It is the big challenge for psychiatry, medicine, and the community in general.

We have the Canadian Armed Forces and Veterans Affairs Canada Joint Suicide Prevention Strategy. However, the difficulty with prevention strategies is that we cannot assess what has not happened. We can only rely on the rates that we continue to monitor.

There has been no increase since 2016. Next year, we will publish another report, which will add more years. We will continue to monitor this very closely.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

We talk to specialists. If we had specific recommendations…. This upsets me greatly. We should honour our veterans more for what they have done for us. Basically, what you may be lacking are resources.

Can you tell us, right here, what we could do for you if we were able to make a 180‑degree turn? You may tell me that you need resources, psychiatrists, or people who can respond quickly. We know that suicide can happen quickly. Do we need to invest more money?

Are there certain things that could help us change the situation?

[Cyd Courchesne]

The big challenge is identifying a specific cause. If there were one and we knew what it was, our prevention programs would be very effective.

However, this is a multifactorial problem, and we do not know all the underlying causes. Often, it is not necessarily mental health issues that lead to these acts. It is therefore difficult to implement measures when we do not know exactly what the causes are. We can make many assumptions and base our programs on these assumptions. That is why our strategy is based on the seven areas of well-being, such as financial security and employment, among others.

Commemoration and recognition of service are also important aspects and are included in the department's mandate.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

How much speaking time do I have left, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

You have one second left.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

In that case, Ms. Courchesne, could you forward your recommendations to the committee?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much.

That concludes our first round of questions.

Let's move on to the second round.

Mr. Tolmie, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I appreciate having the witnesses here. Thank you for your service.

I'd like to direct the following question to the brigadier-general and major-general.

When you're in the military, part of the training—and correct me if I'm wrong—is to recognize some of your comrades going through suicidal thoughts. Is that correct? Could you share a little bit about what that is?

[Major-General Scott Malcolm, Surgeon General, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

I would suggest, particularly when we talk in the military about looking out for one's six, one's back, it's that idea of buddy care. Indeed, it's more than just recognizing if someone is displaying suicidal thoughts; it's recognizing if things aren't quite right. Rarely does it start with someone immediately being suicidal. There are signs that something perhaps is not quite right with them. Your buddies and your chain of command are the ones who see them every day and are best placed, including their families, to note if there's a change going on.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you for answering that question.

Mr. Harris, are any of the case managers trained to recognize veterans who may be having suicidal thoughts?

[Steven Harris]

The simple answer is yes. Everybody has training in suicide assistance, ASIST training more specifically, in most cases. That helps them recognize and work with veterans or anyone else who may call.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

When you're in the military, you have your comrades. When you're a veteran, you're alone, and how you access your case manager is usually by phone and by email. How can the case managers recognize someone who's having suicidal thoughts by phone or by email?

[Steven Harris]

Unfortunately, I think the answer is that the veterans are quite honest about it and share where they're at and what they're feeling. Quite often we do have calls from veterans who are suicidal, and we have case managers, our veteran service agents, even our call centre agents, who help them work through what they're facing. Of course, people can also come into our offices as well. There are lots of ways in which we can do that. We can go out and meet people as well. It's not limited to just an email or phone call, but even in those instances, there are signs we are trained to look for and be clear on even if they are not being very clear about it.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Our challenge here is that we have people who are in a buddy system, where their buddies can check and say, “Okay, listen, I think we have to have a conversation with you; something is not right.” They leave, and what you're saying is that those who are forthright, who are having suicidal thoughts and mental health issues, are the ones who are going to come forward.

The problem is how we track the ones who don't come forward and who don't share and need that help. Those are the ones we're missing. How do we capture them?

[Cyd Courchesne]

Madam Chair, as part of our suicide prevention plan, we instituted mental health first aid. That's available to veterans and their family members. This is a way of continuing...because it's not just on one individual. It's educating the surroundings.

This has been ongoing since we released the suicide prevention plan. It's very popular. All of our sessions fill up very quickly.

We also have the peer support program. They're also available to veterans and we promote that.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you.

I'm glad that you touched on that because that's the peer group those vets have.

Are you doing training for spouses? How is that rolled out? How is that available?

[Cyd Courchesne]

Madam Chair, yes, we do. We have family peer support and we have peer support, so we cover all bases.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Look at my time, will you?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I'm sorry. I was nice the first day, but we're back to military.

I will now invite MP Clark.

You have five minutes.

[Braedon Clark, Liberal, Sackville—Bedford—Preston, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Harris, earlier you mentioned that the wait times have been cut in half and the backlog has been cut in half.

Can you explain a little bit more about what you're referring to and what impact, in your view, that has on the work you're doing around suicide prevention as well?

[Steven Harris]

Sure. I think there are a couple of things to note as a result of that.

The very first one is that for a long time, we've had—and we continue to have; I want to be completely clear about it—files beyond our service standard. Veterans Affairs has a disability benefits program. That's usually the first intake of veterans who have had an illness or an injury in the military. They come and they apply for disability benefits related to their service.

The service standard is that we give them a decision within 16 weeks 80% of the time. We've not been successful at doing that over the last number of years. In fact, the files beyond that period grew to about 23,000 in 2020. We successfully cut that in half. We cut the time that individuals have had to wait to get a decision down to 22 weeks. It was around 40 before.

What that means is veterans are getting access to decisions much more quickly than they were before. We're still not at our service standard. We still need to get there. There's work to do on that front, but it means that people are getting decisions much earlier than they were even four years ago.

Second, that means access to treatment. I mentioned in my opening remarks that we have a mental health benefit. As soon as somebody applies for a mental health condition, they get access to treatment. That was put in place a couple of years ago.

It also means that the people who are getting a decision more quickly are getting access to treatment for physical injuries as well. When we get a decision to the veteran much more quickly.... In any case, whether it's physical or, in particular, for mental health, we know that if they have to wait longer for it, the individual veteran themself is going to suffer and probably get worse before they get better.

We need to get decisions for them quickly. That's why the investment has been made to help speed up that process and also make sure they can have immediate access to mental health supports when they need it.

[Braedon Clark, Liberal, Sackville—Bedford—Preston, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

I wanted to touch on the issue of data and tracking as well.

Madam Courchesne, you mentioned that the rate has not really changed since 1975, I believe. As you touched on, it's also impossible to prove a negative or track something that has not happened. How do you manage that? How do you crack that nut? I know it's a difficult thing to figure out.

The rate may be constant over time, but again, there may be many people who are living happy, productive lives who otherwise might not be.

Can you touch a bit on how you think you can figure out that puzzle?

Thank you.

[Cyd Courchesne]

Madam Chair, even though we can't get to the root cause or the trigger that pushes someone to follow through, we gather more information. We don't have just the rate. We know that for men, it's younger men and non-commissioned members. Working with our colleagues from the transition centre, we can target that population to make sure they're screened and things are in place as they leave the military.

We'll gather more information like that until we get to a point where we will crack that nut. We'll keep learning through continued research in this.