Evidence of meeting #8 for Veterans Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lee.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Hill, you stated that your son was on three different types on medication. I tried to write them down as you were speaking. Can you remind me of them?
Corporal and Aviation Technician, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
He was on Latuda, which is an antipsychotic, Wellbutrin and Prozac.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
My colleague, Ms. Wagantall, has a couple more questions, so I'll hand my time over to her.
Thanks.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Chair.
Ms. Hills, you mentioned that you were aware that from 2021 to 2023 there were 40 suicides that took place within the Canadian Armed Forces. Within the veterans community and CAF, we find it hard to get these numbers. How are you aware of that? Can you explain that to me?
Corporal and Aviation Technician, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
It's readily available online. I was also at a wreath-laying service yesterday for Canadians who died on Canadian soil, including those who died of PTSD or suicide. The numbers are there. Those are the numbers of the people coming forward, of families who feel comfortable disclosing that their loved one died by suicide.
I took a picture of it. I wish I could show it to you. The numbers are staggering. In 2021, 2022 and 2023, in this picture I have there are a lot of black ribbons, which indicate people who have died but the family doesn't want the name released.
I believe they got their statistics through Veterans Affairs.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Would you be able to send that document to the committee?
Corporal and Aviation Technician, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Yes, I can go online and send that, yes.
Where do I send it?
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
I would appreciate that. Thank you very much. You can send it to the clerk.
Do you have it here?
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Oh, I see. Okay, our amazing analyst can get that for me.
I'm missing my executive assistant at the moment, and it's awful.
You're giving us numbers that are past what we've heard here at the committee. There's a new report, supposedly coming out shortly, that we were told would probably look significantly concerning.
You also mentioned that your numbers are to 2023 and that you expect those numbers would be going up further. As someone who's been through this horrific scenario, do you have a sense as to why those numbers are so high?
Corporal and Aviation Technician, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I wish I knew. I don't know why the numbers are increasing.
I mentioned my co-worker going to mental health and being told, even though she was suicidal, “Sorry; come back in two weeks and we'll help you.”
When another friend was at risk of taking his life that morning, he was told to go to a civilian emergency room, and they told him, “No, go back to the MIR. You're not one of our patients.”
Somebody just wants help at that point. Someone's just asking for help, and they're being kind of bashed around like a badminton birdie. When somebody's in crisis, there's the frustration of not knowing who to go to or just being thrown around like they don't really matter.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
I understand. Thank you.
There is an awareness now, I think, that has not been there—perhaps because of the public being more aware as well—that we have not done a good job in Canada of caring for the mental health of our serving members, and of course that is implicated in the conditions that our veterans are facing as well.
Thank you so much for being willing to share what you personally have been going through now, and also with the loss of your son. We really do appreciate your testimony today. There's nothing more important than anecdotal evidence that comes to this committee to be significantly weighted when we come up with recommendations.
Is there anything you would specifically say to us that we should be doing immediately to make a difference for others like your son, who was struggling so much?
Corporal and Aviation Technician, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
That's a difficult one. I wish I knew. Maybe we need to make it so that people are less afraid to approach mental health services.
I'm being released from the military. I don't want to be released, but because I require mental health services.... When I stopped going to mental health, they told me I had to keep going, and then they turned around and they are releasing me for medical reasons, for PTSD or mental health reasons. I know that at least five people who I am working with this year, some of the best soldiers I've ever served with, are being released, and guess what—they all use the services of mental health.
I don't know. I wish I knew the answers.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Corporal Hills, first of all, thank you for your testimony and thank you for your service.
Before I put my name on the ballot, I was a litigator with a specialty in medical malpractice. With the testimony that we heard today, you can imagine what's going on in my head in terms of going back to what I did before I came to Parliament.
Your testimony raised numerous questions that I have a professional interest in as a result of my background. We don't have the time, nor would it be appropriate in this venue, to delve into those questions at the level of detail that I would like to, so I'm going to start with an invitation. If you think it would be helpful to you to talk to a retired litigator with some experience in medical malpractice, I am available to you after this meeting, and I'll get my contact information to you. There are a bunch of things that you said that suggest there may be other avenues, should you wish to go there.
I don't think a public forum is a place for that discussion and I fear the risk of retraumatization, but that offer is open to you.
Corporal and Aviation Technician, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Thank you.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
To our friends from CMHA, first of all, thank you for your testimony.
You talked about a pan-Canadian strategy and indicated that Canada is one of the few countries that doesn't have one. What's the gold standard so that we don't have to reinvent the wheel? What are the best practices globally?
Research Librarian, Canadian Mental Health Organization
The gold standard is.... The normal trajectory is to have a framework, which we have, and then to have a strategy that has a binding agreement, resource commitments, timelines and deliverables that are mapped out. The action plan is the implementation part of the strategy.
We went from a framework to an action plan. We believe that, despite some good work that has been done, we should take the time and the energy to start again with a strategy. Do not throw out everything that's going on, but incorporate it into a renewed action plan based on the comprehensive strategy we craft. We've been calling for one since 2004, and the call continues.
The International Association for Suicide Prevention had a call in 2021—Partnerships for Life—for all countries to have a national strategy. That call continues today. I believe, at this point in 2025, there are 40-plus countries with one.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
We heard earlier today about one example of a peer support network that is top shelf internationally and is in the U.K. We heard that from Madame Veilleux. Are you familiar with that? I know you referenced peer support programs in your testimony as well. Are you familiar with what's available in the U.K.? Are there lessons to be learned from that, specifically on the peer support side?
Research Librarian, Canadian Mental Health Organization
We're always analyzing and familiarizing ourselves with peer support programs that are done internationally. There are always lessons to be learned. I don't know if the others have anything to say on that.
To answer that more thoughtfully, I would have to examine this program in depth. I can get back to you, if you would like.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
That would be appreciated.
This is the last question, very quickly. We heard earlier today that when someone reaches out to Veterans Affairs, they will not necessarily get a list of available programs.
You started your testimony by saying that you have a suite of resources at the CMHA in conjunction with Atlas. Is that a list that would be of use to case managers in Veterans Affairs when dealing with veterans?
Research Librarian, Canadian Mental Health Organization
Yes. There are resources listed in two of the three guides that have other avenues that someone at risk or a family of someone at risk can pursue.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Thank you very much.
Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Corporal Hills, I want to make sure first that the interpretation is working at your end. You are indicating that it is.
Allow me to offer you my sincere condolences. It seems to me that you have been more than doubly traumatized. This is worth mentioning. I commend you for the resilience and courage you have shown in coming to testify before the committee.
For that reason, I want to offer you the two minutes I have left. Ms. McKnight and the deputy ministers who met with us this week are watching us.
If they were here, what would you tell them? What is the most fundamental thing?