Evidence of meeting #8 for Veterans Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lee.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Airdrie—Cochrane, AB
I think you've done a very good job of explaining it. It's having to retell and re-prove.... That's something we hear all of the time from veterans. You've explained it well, thank you.
Madame Veilleux.
Licensed Sexologist and Policy Consultant, As an Individual
I would like to add something.
Licensed Sexologist and Policy Consultant, As an Individual
Right, I will try to be brief, but that is not my forte.
Actions have to match promises. When we invite people to join the Canadian Forces, we promise to support them for life. Strangely, however, those promises are forgotten over the course of their service. Once people are veterans they are left behind, on their own, and do not get the services they need.
First, to prevent this sanctuary trauma, we have to make sure that care is put in place and is appropriate. Ms. Ruth clearly illustrated the pace at which support moves when it comes to mental health. If we try to do everything in three sessions, the trauma will persist. There is even a risk of retraumatization.
How many times does a person have to recount their story before being taken seriously and moving from one care level to the next? In sexual violence cases, for example, they will have to prove over and over that it really happened.
If these various points can be addressed, I think we will then be on the right track for preventing sanctuary trauma.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Thank you, Ms. Veilleux.
Again, Ms. Ruth, our sincere condolences for your loss. Thank you for your courage. Thank you for coming here this morning. We appreciate it.
Ms. Veilleux, we are pleased to have met you.
We will be suspending to prepare for our next panel.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Thank you very much for your service, Ms. Hills.
From the Canadian Mental Health Association, we have SM Sansouci, national government relation lead, and Robert Olson, research librarian.
I would like to invite Ms. Hills to start for five minutes. Then, we'll invite Mr. Olson and Madame Sansouci for the remainder.
Thank you.
Judith Hills Corporal and Aviation Technician, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I would like to thank you for giving me a voice at this committee on behalf of my son Sam.
My name is Judy Hills. I'm a corporal serving in the Royal Canadian Air Force in Comox, but I'm being released medically in January. I'm also a mother of four. My youngest son, Corporal Samuel James Hills, was serving in the Canadian Forces as a signaller at CFB Trenton when he died by suicide on August 19, 2021.
Sam had gone to mental health in Petawawa for help with anger management. Immediately, he was prescribed Prozac. Within a few weeks, Wellbutrin was added to his prescription. He was posted from Petawawa to Trenton in 2020 while on both medications. While in Trenton, they kept adjusting the medications. I'm not sure if he was being treated for depression, anxiety or anger, but he seemed fine to me. While he was adjusting to life as a single man after a marital breakdown, I'd never have suspected that he was experiencing suicidal thoughts at the time of his death.
In late July/early August of 2021, he told me that he was afraid he was starting to have psychosis. He was having difficulty telling the difference between what was real and what wasn't. He didn't elaborate much at the time, but he spoke to the MIR the following morning and was prescribed an antipsychotic drug called Latuda in addition to the Wellbutrin and Prozac. These drugs should never be prescribed simultaneously. I'll elaborate shortly on that. Within a few short weeks, he ended his life by hanging.
An hour or so before he died, he called me. He told me about a recurring nightmare he had been having for weeks. In the dream, he was being chased by a hell-hound. In the last dream, the hound was old and tired. He tamed it by showing compassion and care. It curled up in his lap. He died shortly after our call. The coroner's report listed his death as August 19, but I feel he died the night of the 18th, within the hour after our call. I knew he was having a difficult night, but I had no idea he was contemplating suicide or I would have called the MPs to do a wellness check. I live with so much guilt. As his mother, I feel that I should have known. In his two-page suicide note, he spoke in detail about this nightmare. I have nightmares now and I can't tell if they're real or not, so I think I understand what he meant.
When Sam was posted to Trenton, he had a warrant officer who began very early on to harass him. The schedule they worked was brutal. It gave very little time to allow for any kind of social life or rest. He and a co-worker came up with a few options that he discussed with the warrant officer. He told me she became angry for suggesting a change and that she wasn't changing anything. The captain of the unit did, however, change the schedule on a trial basis. This upset her, and the working relationship went downhill from there. He would often call me frustrated and even in tears after having a difficult day while at work because of that relationship. I told him he should talk with a harassment adviser, but he didn't want to stir the pot or be known as a complainer.
Within a day of his death, my oldest son, who had also been a signaller, received a call from a mutual friend—another signaller—of his and Sam's. He told my son that the warrant officer needed to be looked at regarding harassment of Sam prior to his death. I was also told that apparently the warrant officer submitted her release the morning he died when the news hit his unit. She also hired a lawyer to represent her at the board of inquiry. During the board of inquiry, the allegations of harassment and bullying were brought up during her interview, which I was present at. She denied any harassment, saying that she and Sam had gotten along fine. She denied any wrongdoing.
At the completion of the BOI, once the findings were presented to Winnipeg, the president of the BOI was told to redact any piece regarding the alleged harassment based on her interview. He refused, because he felt there was truth in the allegations. Instead, they wrote in their report that there was no evidence of harassment. My son, obviously, didn't have a chance to tell his side of events, because he was dead.
The medications Sam had been prescribed were not even discussed in the BOI. Wellbutrin has long been known as a drug that can cause both nightmares and hallucinations. Rather than weaning him off the drug, he was instead prescribed Latuda, the antipsychotic, as an addition to the two antidepressant drugs he was already taking. The psychiatrist who saw Sam just days before he died did not prescribe the drug. Somebody at the MIR did, and did not consider the contraindications of mixing these three drugs together.
After he died, I spoke with a pharmacist and asked if it was safe to prescribe all three at once. He said, no, not unless the patient is in hospital and is under observation. Sam was not even on sick leave, let alone under any kind of observation. Mixing Latuda and Wellbutrin is known to cause confusion. Combining antidepressants and antipsychotic medication also can increase the risk of suicidal ideation and behaviour. This is a well-documented risk, a risk that was not calculated prior to my son's death.
The board of inquiry found no fault of the military in Sam's death. They did not consider the harassment as problematic. They did not even investigate the medications he had been prescribed. The president of the BOI flew to Comox from Trenton with the findings to deliver them in person to me. He said that he felt the findings were unfair. In the months after Sam died, I reached out to Winnipeg and requested that the BOI be reopened, since they did not investigate the medications he had been prescribed. I received a letter from a general at the office of the board of inquiry offering condolences, but they said they do not reopen findings of BOIs.
Sam was a friend to everyone, especially to those who didn't have many friends. He was empathetic and compassionate. He taught me to be less judgmental and he taught me patience. He was funny and he was charming. He was a self-taught gifted guitarist. He was kind. He was a son, a brother, an uncle, a nephew and a cousin. He loved his two dogs, Buddy and Theo: They were his boys.
He was proud to serve his country, and yet his service was not even recognized. My former husband and I did not even receive the Memorial Cross, because the military said his death was not related to his service. I beg to differ. Sam was not and is not a statistic. He was so much more than that. In the four years since he died, I have also lost both my parents and Sam's dog Buddy. I am now facing the end of my career in a few short months, because my mental health no longer aligns with universality of service. I am living in a never-ending maze of compounding grief.
Between 2021 and 2023, there were over 40 deaths by suicide in the Canadian Forces. The statistics for 2024-25 have not been officially released, but I know that those numbers are not decreasing. I have lost several friends in the CAF to suicide.
One of my secondary duties in the CAF is as a sentinel. One of my co-workers approached me because he had been to mental health, as he was experiencing thoughts of suicide. When he had gone to mental health on the base, he was told that nobody could see him for at least two weeks. He had been living in the barracks when they were destroyed by a gas leak explosion in Comox. He was struggling with his mental health as a result. I let him talk. I gave him the number for the Canadian Forces member assistance program. I regularly followed up with him. I also discussed what had happened at mental health with our chain of command. Nothing was done until I spoke to someone higher up in the chain of command a few weeks later.
I have another friend who was told to go to a civilian ER when he was suicidal. They wanted to dismiss him back to the MIR within hours because he was military. Luckily, his wife advocated for his well-being. He was admitted to a psychiatric ward on a 72-hour hold.
I don't know the answer. I don't know how to fix it. But I do know that something has to be done. I wouldn't wish what my family has gone through on my worst enemy. I wish that no parent, no mother or father, should ever receive the call that I did on the morning of August 19, 2021.
Thank you.
Liberal
Robert Olson Research Librarian, Canadian Mental Health Organization
First off, thank you, Ms. Hills, for your testimony. We give our profound condolences for your loss.
Thank you, Madam Chair and members of the committee. My name is Robert Olson. I'm a research librarian at the Canadian Mental Health Association, Alberta division, and the Centre for Suicide Prevention.
We lead community mental health in Alberta and suicide prevention in Canada. We do this by convening, educating, incubating, funding and driving systems change with myriad partners throughout our province and across Canada.
I'm joined today by my colleague SM Sansouci, from CMHA National. Thank you for inviting us to your committee to speak about veteran suicide.
Suicide among veterans continues to be alarming and persistent. This is why comprehensive, targeted and sustained mental health supports for veterans and their families are so crucial. The burden of suicide in this population is at crisis levels.
As committee members learned from previous testimony, our organization collaboratively developed a suite of resources with the Atlas Institute to address veteran suicide. These resources are supported by evidence-based research and informed by an advisory group of veterans with lived experience and their family members.
You also know of the efforts that have been made to prevent suicide among veterans and active Canadian Armed Forces members. The CAF/VAC joint suicide prevention strategy, with its seven lines of effort, first published in 2017, demonstrates the commitment to suicide prevention that the two bodies hold for their members. This is to be commended and amplified, as should the efforts around the federal framework and the national suicide prevention action plan, particularly the implementation of 988, the suicide crisis helpline.
Efficacious suicide prevention work, like bringing about any social change, relies on a balance of universal and targeted approaches. Anyone can have thoughts of suicide; however, some groups of people are disproportionately affected by it. We call these groups “priority populations”.
Universal or whole-population initiatives are needed to reduce stigma, raise awareness and address broader social determinants of health. However, universal approaches alone insufficiently serve priority populations, such as veterans. Priority populations benefit from targeted approaches designed around their unique precipitating factors, and these efforts are best implemented when underpinned by the work of a universal strategy. In short, we need a pan-Canadian suicide prevention strategy that considers all people in Canada and the populations most affected by suicide.
Canada is one of the few industrialized nations without a national strategy. Research shows multipronged national strategies that are appropriately resourced and implemented lower suicide rates and attempts. National strategies are comprehensive. They reduce stigma, drive awareness and address issues such as the broader determinants of health that contribute to suicide, such as housing and homelessness. These are exceedingly important for veterans, but they are currently not being considered in any coordinated way. A national strategy has clear deliverables and outcome targets that are regularly measured and evaluated.
Because health is a provincial and territorial responsibility, co-operation and collaboration at the federal-provincial-territorial table is crucial. A strategy must be co-developed at this table if we want to see robust uptake and implementation by the provinces and territories. Ultimately, it would be coordinated at the federal level, but dedicated yet flexible funding would flow to the provinces and territories to ensure they are able to address their own related priorities, based on readiness and local capacity.
Comprehensive cross-ministerial efforts are also key. A wide range of ministries whose remits are relevant to suicide and its prevention must be included in development, implementation and evaluation.
This committee has heard testimony that despite the actions of the CAF/VAC joint strategy, significant gaps and lack of resources for veterans remain. Initiatives that need to be shored up include peer support initiatives, such as CMHA's OSI-CAN program, which is a culturally relevant community-based support program for veterans.
Other elements include the need to strengthen access to timely, coordinated care and the need to train health care providers to be culturally competent and understand the unique realities of the veteran community. We also need to enhance supports in the period of transition from military to civilian life.
CMHA Alberta and the Centre for Suicide Prevention commend this committee for its interest and focus on veteran suicide prevention. We urge you to augment the targeted efforts for this critical priority population and join our call for a national strategy that serves all the people in Canada. Universal approaches lift targeted approaches: Suicide prevention involves us all.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
Thank you very much, Mr. Olson.
This will conclude the testimony portion.
Ms. Hills, on behalf of this committee, I want to offer our profound condolences. Thank you for your courage. If at any point you need some time, please let us know. I don't mind suspending our committee. I just want to make sure that you're okay.
Corporal and Aviation Technician, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Yes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Marie-France Lalonde
As we go forward, there will be rounds of questions to our witnesses. I want to let you know that sometimes I may have to interrupt; I apologize sincerely for that. Members of Parliament know their time. We will start with six minutes.
We will start with Ms. Wagantall for six minutes.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Thank you so much, Chair.
Thank you to both of our witnesses today for being here.
Can I call you Judith?
Corporal and Aviation Technician, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Judy or Judith is fine.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Thank you.
I cannot imagine the grief that you have experienced or what your son went through and desperately tried to deal with.
We serve veterans here. However, it's become clearer to me that veterans come with a great deal of injury, often from their service, that is very difficult to explain, prove or deal with. Stories like yours are unfortunately not rare.
You were told that his death was not related to his service. Can you share with us a little bit more about how that's beyond believable, and where you think the true intent is behind making a statement like that in regard to a young man who was serving and took his own life?
Corporal and Aviation Technician, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
I wish I had the answers.
Anybody who knew Sam or worked with him could attest to the fact that he was very proud of his service. He was very proud to serve.
What he went through with his warrant officer once he got to Trenton was hell for him. From the get-go, from the moment he tried to discuss changing the schedule to make it better for everybody, because they were working 12 on and 12 off.... There was no time for a social life, especially for a young man who was just coming out of a marriage. He had to isolate through COVID, because of the way his unit was. People knew what he was going through.
At the board of inquiry, I sat behind her during her interview. She was incredibly nervous, wringing her hands under the table and everything. I could say that you could tell she was lying. Obviously, I'm biased—I'm his mother—but from hearing what other people had said about what he had gone through at work and to have her say, “No, Sam and I got along wonderfully....”
When he was having his medications adjusted and they wanted him to just work days, she got angry at him, saying, “How am I supposed to do this in my unit, when everybody has to work 12 hours? How am I supposed to give you special treatment?” She denied that.
Some people are going through harassment, and the military is saying, especially with Sam, “No, no. This didn't happen. This didn't happen at all.” It's basically making it okay for it to continue happening.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Thank you. I know that's a difficult question to try to answer.
What I'm sensing here is that from your perspective, yes, there was harassment, and I would honestly tend to agree, but the chain of command seems to be an issue within our Canadian Armed Forces, and harassment may very well be an issue from the top down through to those at your son's level of service. Not being able to have confidence that you can say that this is due to service is impacting our veterans extensively, even in regard to your son's relationship with his wife and how much of that was in regard to the circumstances of his service.
In regard to the Memorial Cross, I've had others come to me who were just devastated because they were told that there was no qualification, that the death was not related to service. I want you to know that this can be changed and that it can be fought for on your behalf.
I don't know who your member of Parliament is, but I would really encourage you, if you haven't gone in that direction, to give me a call. This is inappropriate, and we need to make that change for sure on your behalf.
Corporal and Aviation Technician, Canadian Armed Forces, As an Individual
Thank you so much.
Conservative
Cathay Wagantall Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
You are welcome.
To those of you with the Canadian Mental Health Association, thank you so much for all that you do in your research and for your efforts to prevent suicide.
We heard from a previous witness who lost her husband very recently. He was in the RCMP, and one of the first things she talked about was that he worked alone. I know that even in my riding, our RCMP members work in rural and remote areas. They're out covering 200 kilometres, and if something happens, there's no way that there's going to be help there in time.
There are a lot of things like this that are so practical. How do we integrate them into the process of making sure that suicide is prevented? There was an assessment of him, and—
Liberal
Conservative
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Hills, I would like to offer my sincere condolences. I can't imagine what you are feeling.
My questions will be for Mr. Olson.
If I may, I would like to talk about OSI-Canada, which is Operational Stress Injury-Canada, and the Centre de prévention du suicide de Québec.
First, can you tell us the points that this committee should take into consideration when it considers what recommendations to make to the government?
How would you translate your experience and the experience of the CMHA, the Canadian Mental Health Association, into advice for this committee?
October 23rd, 2025 / 9:45 a.m.
Research Librarian, Canadian Mental Health Organization
I'm not sure I understand the question.
Liberal
Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC
I'll repeat it.
What recommendations could this committee make to the government, in relation to your experience and the experience of the Canadian Mental Health Association, for meeting the needs of veterans?