Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 28th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number nine of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

The committee is meeting for its study on suicide prevention among veterans.

Before we welcome our witnesses, for people who are viewing, I would like to provide a warning. We will be discussing experiences related to suicide and grief. This may be triggering to viewers with similar experiences.

If you feel distressed or need help, please advise our clerk. For all witnesses and members of Parliament, it is important to recognize that these are difficult discussions. Also, for our witnesses, if you do not feel comfortable at any point, please let us know. We can pause our meeting for you.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and the members, particularly those who are attending virtually.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those on Zoom, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute your microphone when you are not speaking.

For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses.

In person, we have retired corporal Christine Gauthier, whom I welcome and thank for her military service.

Also here today is Kelsie Sheren, mental resilience expert. Welcome.

You will each have five minutes for your presentation, after which we will have a period of questions for you by the members of the committee.

Ms. Gauthier, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Christine Gauthier, Corporal (Retired), As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to begin by saying that this is my second appearance before your committee. I came here in December 2022. So I would save time if I didn't have to appear again. I don't know if you want me to go over all my service records, but I served for 10 years, from 1988 to 1998. Since then, I have been totally and permanently incapacitated, according to what has been stated. That said, I would really like to take the time I have today to talk about what is happening in the present. I don't want to be someone who keeps going back to the past. I want to move forward, and I'd like to be given the opportunity to do so.

The last time I testified before this committee, I brought two suitcases like this one. This time, I brought just one, but it's not because the situation has improved. It's because I only brought the files from the past three years that have not been resolved yet.

Those who know my story know that it took five years after I received approval to have a platform lift installed in my home for that to be done, and it's not over yet. Veterans Affairs Canada, or VAC, has not yet reimbursed me for the amounts I paid the contractor in full. The file I have here with me covers only the last year of the lift saga.

VAC's processing times are extremely long. I have to keep going back to VAC and all the subcontractors they hire, such as Blue Cross and Lifemark. I can't even tell you how much of a burden that is. This task is difficult both for us, who have to take it on, and for all those involved. There are people involved who are making an effort to help us, but their hands are tied.

Last week, we had a multidisciplinary meeting with seven people from the health care community. I am appearing before you today knowing that, next week, I will have to decide whether I want to be treated with ketamine or electroshock therapy. I'm told that I have too much resistance and that I should be put in an electric chair. That's the conversation I had last week. I will have to respond next week, otherwise my file will be closed at the psychiatry department at Ste. Anne's Hospital.

I came here and asked for help from the outset. We're not getting the help. Every time you think you're going to help us or you tell us you're going to help us, you end up throwing another shovelful of dirt over us, burying us even deeper.

I would now like to talk about access to information.

Mr. Richards asked me when we came last time to ask at the archives to get my file. I have not yet received anything from them. I did it with Joël at the time. That's where it stands.

I have looked at everybody here around the table. Nobody from the last time is still here. None of this is happening.

I wrote a letter to the former minister, Ginette Petitpas Taylor, when she came into office. I never got an answer, and I understand I will not, since she is not representing the ministry anymore.

I'm sorry. I have to read from French and English and then translate.

I have here the file of all of my disabilities, which I mentioned the last time, too, that have not yet been treated, since 1998. They keep sending some of them back, saying that they don't have the correct medical term, but I'm not the one who gives the medical terms. It has all been taken back. I brought just the ones from last year.

Again, I'm here. I'm just going to make a plea to you from the heart, because I don't know what to say anymore that I haven't already said. I just want to live. I just want to be able to do my daily life activities, which I can no longer do. This wait of five years for the elevator caused so many injuries that I'm waiting now for six surgeries in both arms—the two elbows, shoulders and wrists.

Last year...after a year of waiting on this, I was told just last week that they see the risks and the benefits might not be too good from the surgeries because I'm getting older—and all of you as well—by the minute, and even more so with all of this stuff to handle.

I found a ball at the dollar store to help me relieve some of the pressure from lying on the elbow. When I say that I'm trying my darndest to find the minimal equipment and support needed to get through things....

I am inviting you all to come and see first hand what the beauty in all of this is. You can visualize all of it, if you want to give yourself the chance to do so.

I'd like to take the time to answer any questions. You have my contact.... Any time you want to meet me, I will be there. This matter does not affect just me. My spouse is with me. We have been together for 30 years. He's a veteran as well, going through the exact same thing.

I'm sorry. I didn't want to be emotional, but I'm exasperated, tired and about to blow up. I don't know what else to tell you.

I would like to answer any questions that you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Ms. Gauthier.

At this point, here's what we're going to do.

We will go to Mrs. Sheren for five minutes, and then we'll start the rounds of questions, if that's okay with you.

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Sheren, you have five minutes please.

[Kelsie Sheren, Mental Resilience Expert, As an Individual]

Hi, MPs.

I don't know if you know who I am, but hopefully by the end of this you won't forget. I know it's easy to forget who we are, so let's see if this one sticks.

I served my country at the age of 18. I went to war on behalf of you, a war that I now know, and so many of us know, was built on lies. I buried friends under the same flag hanging in this room, and I've watched the same flag burned outside these walls while you all stand silent, calling it freedom when we all know it's terrorism.

Here's the truth: Canada doesn't count veteran suicides. You never have. If you don't count us, then you don't have to admit that you failed us. Every single day since Afghanistan, another Canadian veteran dies by suicide—sometimes two, sometimes more, but you wouldn't know that—and the Government of Canada still refuses to track it, publish it or face it. You hide behind one outdated study from 2016, and that is not enough. It's cowardice.

We came home to neglect, bureaucracy and betrayal, and when veterans reach out for help, this government sends investigators, not healers. We're followed, watched, drugged and not treated, and when that doesn't work, our system offers us death.

I helped break the story on my show when Veterans Affairs began offering MAID to this lovely lady right here. You said that it stopped. Here's a fun fact: It hasn't. You're still offering MAID, still issuing now NDAs and payouts to shut us up. I know this to be a fact because everyone comes to me privately. Over 20 veterans have confirmed they've been offered MAID. I have the proof, and I have proof of more. Offering death to the people you sent to war is moral rot, and this government is full of it. It's betrayal of the highest order.

Offering MAID to people with PTSD is absolutely insane. Research shows that 46% of those with PTSD have suicidal thoughts alone, and 19% attempt suicide without even being offered.... It's much easier if you just dangle a carrot, now, isn't it?

See, you don't really need to offer them a needle, a paralytic or a drug that fills your lungs as you drown to death in your own fluid. You can just, you know, offer them help. Instead, you threaten our benefits if we speak out. I know this because you send PIs to follow me around, and you threaten me in emails. Your own MP and your own Prime Minister have done it. I know this because I also have it in writing.

Your silence with us is just bureaucracy and fear. Your Minister of Veterans Affairs.... Oof. She's a figurehead with zero credibility who blocks veterans online for telling the truth. I also know this because she called for a photo op with me. When I said no, she began blocking my posts on social media for my calling her out for her hypocritical continued behaviour. Weak leaders like Jill McKnight breed case managers who think they can get away with anything, including offering death to us. One of the reasons I say this so confidently is that I just did a press conference this morning on MAID and the expansion that you guys are all wanting to roll out.

At the same time—which is really fun—Senator Pamela Wallin of Saskatchewan is facilitating a backdoor, closed meeting of MPs and senators with Canada's government-funded pro-death cult, Dying With Dignity, tonight—and you can all join—lobbying our government to continue to expand death as a solution for the disabled, the homeless, the mentally ill and our veterans. The senator who says that she cares about veterans' lives built a political platform off of us, and today she is lobbying in another room to kill us.

You don't fix a broken system by euthanizing people. While you fund death and continue to expand in 2027, you deny life-saving treatments. There's, I don't know, psychedelic-assisted therapy—let's take that—for which there's a proven peer-reviewed study and treatment to treat PTSD and depression. Other nations across the globe not only study it but also successfully use it, and Canada continues to bury it in red tape. I know this because I am the only person in Canadian history to legally receive medical psilocybin outside of a clinical trial. Before I was approved, Health Canada offered me electroshock therapy—and I am so sorry they offered that to you; don't you dare.

There are other solutions, people, so think about that. This government would rather electrocute the brain of somebody who has a traumatic brain injury into absolutely nothing instead of offering me a plant.

One of the reasons I'm alive, and the only reason I'm alive, is that Apex Labs fought through the extensively difficult special access program. It's not because of this government; it actually did everything it could to stop me. Every treatment that has helped me has come from outside of Canada, except for Dr. Greg Passey in Vancouver, and was paid for by Americans like the Heroic Hearts Project, Defenders of Freedom and private donors, not this government.

While you hand out opioids in vending machines acting like you're helping, we're begging for actual solutions that you refuse to provide.

This is what betrayal looks like. You spend $32 billion a year on indigenous and veteran programs, yet the money never reaches the people who need it. It dies in committees like this: paperwork and photo ops. Meanwhile, half a billion dollars goes to foreign wars while the soldiers who fought this one can't get basic care.

Let's be radically honest here, shall we? This room—this hearing—is theatre, and every single one of you know it, because somewhere in this country—this country that used to look and act, smell, talk and walk like Canada—a veteran won't make it to morning. A family will lose their loved one; a child will grow up without a parent, and the void they will leave will never, ever be filled.

It won't be because they were weak and not because they didn't try every single minute of their life just to keep breathing. It will be because this country that sent them to war and keeps sending kids to war built on lies refuses to bring them all the way home, and it will be your fault. The blood will be on your hands, not mine this time. I will tell anybody who asks if they want to join, “Don't: They will leave you to die and step over your body to hand an immigrant your benefits, the ones you fought your whole career for.”

Veterans aren't asking for pity. We're demanding accountability. Count every death. Publish the data. Stop offering MAID as a policy. Have we lost our damn minds? Fund the treatments that work. Train actual case managers who speak English and know what we are going through. Stop selling our care to insurance companies like Manulife, because you did that too.

You call us heroes when it's convenient, and you call us terrorists when we speak up. That's not leadership. It's shame. We were trained to fight for this country and now we're forced to fight against it just to stay alive after serving it.

Yes, I live with PTSD, a traumatic brain injury, a major depressive disorder, hearing loss and treatment-resistant depression, but I'm still here, and I will spend the rest of my life exposing this government's failures until no veteran or person in this country sees MAID as a way out—ever. If you ignore us after today, every suicide that follows will belong to you, because what you refuse to confront, you choose to allow.

Fund the real solutions. Stop choosing drugs and death over healing and humanity.

We have a saying in the military: We never leave anyone ever behind. It's time this government starts living by that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, both of you.

Again, I want to thank you on the committee's behalf for your service to Canada.

We will be starting in a minute because our third guest was able to join. I will suspend for a few minutes so we can do the check with the volume and everything.

If you'll excuse us, we'll suspend for a few minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

I call the meeting back to order.

We have Mr. Shaun Fynes, retired chief security officer for the Government of British Columbia, by video conference.

Mr. Fynes, Thank you very much for joining us. You have five minutes. If you could start, then we'll proceed with the questions.

[Shaun Fynes, Retired Chief Security Officer for the Government of British Columbia, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, and my profound apologies: The computer gremlins were smarter than I was today.

I would like to offer my sincere thanks, Madam Chair and members, for the work of your committee and for the invitation to appear today as a witness. My testimony arises from the suicide death of our son, Corporal Stuart Langridge, and of his struggles with inadequate medical care related to post-traumatic stress disorder.

When I met my late wife, Sheila, Stuart was six and, as he grew, we developed a true father-son bond. His biological father is deceased. At about 10, Stuart visited a military display at the Pacific National Exhibition. He came home with a Polaroid taken inside an armoured vehicle, and he was wearing a helmet and a huge grin. From that moment on, he knew he wanted to be a soldier. He joined army cadets at 12 and then at 17 became a reservist with the British Columbia Regiment. On three occasions he volunteered and stood with his rifle as part of the honour guard for Remembrance Day.

At 20, Stuart transitioned into the regular force and was posted to Edmonton with the Lord Strathcona's Horse. He fought wildfires. He deployed to Bosnia and Afghanistan. He was featured in an episode of the military documentary series Truth, Duty, Valour. He earned a position as a gunner with one of four tank crews sent to compete against American troops.

In Afghanistan, he served as a recce soldier and spent most of his time outside the wire, in the mountains, doing over-watch for the troops. He earned a commander's coin, and was described as having provided solid service. A model soldier, his last performance appraisal recommended promotion ahead of his peers.

Under medical care and on a supposed suicide watch, he hanged himself in a barrack room at CFB Edmonton. Stuart's death was indescribably crushing, especially as a seemingly preventable loss. We had braced for bad news during deployments, but thought he was safely home. I delivered his eulogy on his 29th birthday.

A year before, Stuart was training for promotion when he admitted in a survey that he suffered with chest pains. That triggered his immediate return to Edmonton, and he began treatment by the base medical unit. Stuart was prescribed cocktails of medication, but his condition only worsened. He attempted suicide five times. Suffering night terrors and sweats, he began to self-medicate with alcohol and marijuana. It is a remarkable twist of irony that marijuana is now a recognized treatment. Finally, in desperation, Stuart self-admitted to a psychiatric hospital. It was a relief when he took himself to professional help, but we understand now that, by so doing, he bypassed base medical, usurping their role.

As his 30-day commitment came to an end, Stuart asked to go directly from there into a treatment program, but was instead ordered back to base. A counsellor phoned Sheila and assured her that Stuart was under a watch 24-7, and was being kept safe. He was required to live in the defaulters room, leave the door open and report every two hours. It was an ad hoc version of defaulters discipline, and it shamed and humiliated him. Surprisingly, it is documented that those restrictions were in order for Stuart to “earn” further treatment.

When Stuart died, the decision had already been made that he would not be granted that treatment program. We believe that Stuart learned of this, and it precipitated his death the next day. His note to his family contained an apology that he couldn't take the pain any more. Access to medical treatment should not have needed to be earned. It was the right of any soldier.

A board of inquiry conducted at the base opined that Stuart could not have acquired PTSD patrolling in Afghanistan. The psychologist who had administered Stuart's testing wasn't called as a witness. He had tentatively diagnosed PTSD and recommended a meds review. The doctor's contract then ended, and I could not find any indication in Stuart's medical records that the follow-up was ever done. Testing was also conducted at the psychiatric hospital, and it too had pointed to PTSD. Stuart's care set a very low bar against which to measure efficacy of treatment. Our measure is that our son is dead.

At the time, the Canadian Armed Forces publicly denied that suicide was a problem. The culture was typified by the admonition of, “Suck it up, Buttercup”, and victims of PTSD were referred to as “malingerers”, “fakers” and “losers”.

After we went public with our concerns, Stuart was posthumously awarded the Sacrifice Medal, and his death was attributed to his service to Canada.

In the years that followed, Sheila and I were held close by the veteran community. On its recommendation, Sheila received the Queen Elizabeth II's Diamond Jubilee Medal, and we were both inducted into the Order of St. George.

PTSD is a very real injury, as evidenced now through brain scan technology. Informal discipline was no substitute for actual medical care. It is a comfort that since Stuart died, a complete paradigm shift has taken place in the recognition and treatment of PTSD. Our veterans, through the power of their peer network and by your work, have moved the needle. Every veteran has served, but of some we asked too much.

Stigma around PTSD was an impediment to treatment for many. It often precluded or delayed seeking help. The sheer number of victims, however, has brought the problem to the fore and marshalled resources and expertise. One form of stigma remains unaddressed. We differentiate fallen soldiers by physical versus mental injury. If they died overseas, even by suicide, they are honoured as fallen soldiers. In contrast, if they brought the war home and died later by suicide, they are discarded. Their names are not to be found on any granite memorials.

When Sheila was first asked to lay the Silver Cross Mothers wreath in Victoria, a public affairs officer told a journalist she didn't deserve that honour, and they maligned our family. The journalist also reported being admonished that if he didn't stop writing about Langridge, he would never have another interview with the chief of the defence staff. It was a surprise to learn that, because we had spoken out, the army was actively conducting a backroom smear campaign.

Since Afghanistan, much has been done regarding operational stress injury, but I believe we should take the next step. All our fallen wore the same uniform and took the same risks. They should be remembered with honour. By osmosis, that two-tier system stigmatizes PTSD victims who die back home in Canada.

I realize this concern is out of scope for the committee, but I hope you will shine light on the disparity and open and lead discussion on that topic.

The morning after the phone notification that Stuart was dead, I held Sheila as she cried. I told her, “Some good has to come from this, otherwise Stuart died for nothing.” I sincerely hope our speaking out has helped other victims who followed.

I recently read a fact sheet from the Australian defence force on the topic of veteran suicide. The numbers there are also disturbing. To paraphrase, every statistic represents a life once lived in service to this nation. They deserve more than remembrance. They deserve a system that works.

Thank you very sincerely for your support of our veterans.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Mr. Fynes, on my behalf, but also all members of Parliament here and all Canadians, my profound condolences on your loss. Thank you for your service, sir, to Canada.

We will begin a round of questions. Each member of this committee will have six minutes.

I would like to invite Mr. Richards for six minutes, please.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Thank you to all three of you.

All three of you told us some things today that probably make everyone here feel uncomfortable. I don't have to go back over them. It's for that very reason we have to pay more attention than ever. The kinds of things we're hearing here today are completely unacceptable, and we have to do something about it.

There's a lot to cover in a short period of time. I don't even know where to start. What I would like to do is start with you, if I may call you Kelsie.

Kelsie, you made some allegations that would be pretty shocking to most people in this room. They weren't so much to me, because I have heard from and of veterans who also have been offered MAID in the last couple of years, not to the extent that you have, clearly. You said you've personally spoken to or know of 20 veterans who have been offered medical assistance in dying by Veterans Affairs.

Did I hear that right?

[Kelsie Sheren]

We have 20 with written proof. We have more who have come forward with audio recordings. We have case managers from Veterans Affairs who are admitting it to me. We also have other individuals who are too afraid to come forward because Veterans Affairs has threatened their benefits. I know this because they've done it to me, so I believe them.

We also have other individuals who have been offered NDAs and payouts if they were to take it.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

I've heard some of these same things. It's often the case that people are afraid to speak up because they rely on Veterans Affairs. Even when they can't get all the help they need, there may be some thing they're receiving and they're afraid of the loss of that. I understand that, and that's a problem as well, obviously.

Is there anything you can provide this committee with to substantiate some of these things? Obviously, I believe you, but is there something we can do to substantiate them? Is there something you could provide to this committee that would be helpful for us to be able to take action, or is it something where people are afraid to have it be public?

[Kelsie Sheren]

People are not just afraid for it to be public. They're afraid for their families and for their careers. For those that are in the pro-death cult where they come out and speak, they don't want to be killed by MAID. They believe they should have access to proper health care, which every Canadian deserves the right to. They said they would speak out only if they went to America, and then they would speak with me if I went to America and interviewed them privately.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

I understand. It's in line with some of the things we've heard from Mr. Fynes as well, where his family was targeted. That's what happens, unfortunately.

Before I move to another related topic, Christine, you had the courage to come out and share the experience you had with being offered, by a couple of different individuals at Veterans Affairs, medical assistance in dying when you were actually seeking help with living. I'm sure you're known publicly by other veterans because of that. Have you heard from other veterans about them being offered MAID?

Would you agree with what Kelsie is telling us, which is that there are many more out there?

[Christine Gauthier]

Unfortunately, with my condition, I haven't been out of my house in five years, to be frank. I'm not a person who likes computers, so I'm not on social.... It takes me four hours to get out of bed. By the time I've done that, trying to go and just wash myself, get to the food and prepare....

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

I understand

I would encourage anyone who hasn't heard your story to go back and review your previous testimony about what you went through and what you're continuing to go through with Veterans Affairs. That's what I wanted to touch on—

[Christine Gauthier]

I'm sorry. I'm going to cut you off for a second.

I can be living proof in front of you that, because I have spoken up.... Don't tell me that I'm not targeted. How can you explain that? It's been five years since I asked for a wheelchair. I might be getting it next week. My spouse.... It's sad that I'm going to say this here today and hopefully—maybe we'll have proof of it again. He has the chair I was supposed to get five years ago. He got it in three months. How would you even explain that? He's not full time in the chair. He needs it for long distances, but he got it in three months. How is it possible?

Do not claim that we're not targeted and we're not pushed to silence, because I have all the paperwork, if you want to take the time to go through it.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

It's understood. It's sad to hear.

It comes to the topic I want to address. There isn't a lot of time, but I want to give each of you and Mr. Fynes as well, the opportunity, if we can.

We've heard from many witnesses in this study about sanctuary trauma. Christine, you'd probably be as familiar as anyone with that.

Tell us a little bit about the very fact of having to fight with the people who are supposed to be there to help you. What does that do to a veteran and their family?

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Ms. Gauthier, you have 15 seconds left for an answer.

[Christine Gauthier]

I'm sorry, but I didn't understand the question about trauma.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

What does it do to a veteran and their family when they have to fight with the very organization that's supposed to be there to help them?

[Christine Gauthier]

The sad thing is, Mr. Richards, we have the first-hand person. People are there and they do try to provide the care.

Both my spouse and I are veterans. We've been holding on to each other and dragging each other down non-stop through all of this. All of these people are all super exhausted with having to redo all of the work non-stop. We're isolated. I couldn't press more.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Thank you very much, Ms. Gauthier.

That concludes this round.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

I would like to have given the other two an opportunity to respond as well. Maybe they'll have another chance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Marie-France Lalonde]

Yes. Perhaps they can do so in the next round of questions.

Thank you very much, Mr. Richards.

I will now pass the floor to Mr. Casey for six minutes.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for your testimony and for your service.

The purpose of this study is to examine suicide among veterans and to try to collect evidence in order to make recommendations to prevent further instances of suicide among veterans. A fair bit of the testimony we heard, or some of the testimony, related to medical assistance in dying. That's not directly an aspect of this study, but some of the things that were said in the opening statements are indeed extremely serious and extremely troubling, so I'd like to address that first. I hope I will be able to spend most of my six minutes on the actual subject matter of the study.

What we know, what has been proven and what has been substantiated is that there was one employee at Veterans Affairs who acted inappropriately in dealing with clients and clients' files and dealing with veterans and veterans' files with respect to medical assistance in dying. At the time that came to light, Minister MacAulay was before this committee. He profoundly apologized. He pleaded that if anyone else had any information about any case, they should please bring it forward and it would be fully investigated.

I'm here today to repeat that plea. I can assure you that counselling medical assistance in dying is not within the mandate of Veterans Affairs. It is not within the mandate of case managers. It is not within the mandate of any of the teams involved. If there is substantiation for the things that have been said today, we owe it to veterans, we owe it to the employees of Veterans Affairs and we owe it to the veterans community to bring that forward, to have it investigated and to have it dealt with. It is my plea that on the information that has been referenced here today, we want to investigate it. We want to attempt to substantiate it, if it can be substantiated. Please—please—bring that forward so that this can be done.

Veterans Affairs policies were updated and those changes took effect on August 23, 2022, directly as a result of the one employee I referred to. The veterans service team, case managers, veterans service agents and veterans service team managers do not have the mandate to discuss, provide advice or suggest to veterans anything related to medical assistance in dying. The service is not within the Veterans Affairs Canada scope of work. When a veteran is seeking advice or help with medical assistance in dying, or brings it up in conversation, Veterans Affairs Canada employees are to refer them back to their treating physician or care practitioner, as this is not within Veterans Affairs Canada's mandated scope of work.

We, and I think all Canadians, realize that medical assistance in dying is something that is deeply personal. It is something that is deeply personal to everyone who is considering that option and their loved ones, and ultimately with their physician—