Debates of Jan. 21st, 1994

Cigarette Smuggling

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Richelieu, QC]

With all due respect, Mr. Speaker, the question was directed to the Quebec lieutenant and Minister of Foreign Affairs.

[The Speaker]

Of course, if the Prime Minister wishes to respond, by all means he can.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

I know the Minister of Foreign Affairs would have been happy to answer the question, but unfortunately this matter does not fall within the jurisdiction of his department.

The hon. minister will surely be happy to answer questions during the course of a debate. This being said, I have nothing further to add to what I said earlier. Our goal is to treat every person in Canada equally because we believe everyone is equal in this country and that no one should have a special status.

Members Of Parliament Retiring Allowances

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

Reform MPs in this House and the voters we represent are disgusted by the abusive use of taxpayers' dollars for the MPs' pension plan. In December our leader, the hon. member for Calgary Southwest, wrote to the Prime Minister asking him to change the plan so that Reform Party MPs or any member of this House could opt out. The Prime Minister's reply refers to yet another study which will not be complete until mid-July.

My question for the Prime Minister is this. Has the government not realized that Canadians want action not more studies on this matter?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I do not think that we are about to have an election. The next election will be probably four or five years from now, so none of us is about to benefit from this pension until we have completed this term.

Therefore I do not see the urgency in that. We said in our red book that we would review the pension plan and work on it. We have four years to settle this before anyone can qualify for this plan. It is a problem that we will deal with and we will have legislation before the House.

Even if we were to pass the bill today it would not have effect until four and a half years from now. Perhaps the hon. member can wait a bit and we will have a bill in the House of Commons. If he does not want to have a pension plan applying to him I hope he will vote in a way that he will not benefit from it. I do not want members of Parliament to be in a position where they vote against a bill and after that collect.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. Canadians want action on this immediately and so do members of Parliament who are making contributions to this pension plan today.

We would like to know if the government intends to continue to force MPs to participate in the MPs' pension plan.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

If the hon. member does not want to contribute we can make administrative arrangements to make sure he is not contributing and we will save-

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

But do not come and ask to have the portion of the money paid by the federal government put somewhere for utilization later on. If you are out, you are out.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I sense some uncertainty in the government's position on the MPs' pension plan.

For the benefit of members' personal financial planning, could the Prime Minister tell this House if he will make a decision on the MPs' pension plan before or after the government moves to limit RRSP contributions?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

The member should not be worried at all if he does not contribute. We will pay him back the few dollars he would have contributed in the first few months. We will not try to make money off of him.

I would like to make this statement. When we talk about compensation for members, we should realize that every elected member of this House makes less than half the salary of the worst hockey player in the NHL. Members of Parliament also make less than most police chiefs, directors of schools and directors of hospitals in Alberta who sometimes make more than $120,000 a year.

I do not think that members are overpaid. However, if some members think they are not worth what they are making we will be happy to reduce their salaries.

National Revenue

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the right hon. Prime Minister. The Prime Minister told the House yesterday that he wanted the action brought against the Government of Canada by his Minister of National Revenue to be withdrawn fully.

However, following Question Period yesterday, the Minister of National Revenue noted, as reported on page B11 of The Gazette today, that he was not the one who could terminate the Federal Court appeal division's procedure.

That comment made outside the Commons clearly infers that he wishes the Crown to drop its case so that he can receive the proceeds initially awarded to him.

Here is my question: Does the Prime Minister who is himself a lawyer recognize that the legal dispute between his Minister of National Revenue and the Government of Canada which is presently before the Federal Court appeal division is of the exact same nature as the case which was discontinued in the first instance?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, what I have been told is that the Minister had instructed his lawyer to drop the case immediately and that he will not be getting any settlement from the government.

[François Langlois, Bloc, Bellechasse, QC]

Mr. Speaker, am I to understand from this incomplete answer that the Prime Minister will ask his Minister for National Revenue to discontinue his appeal of the lower court's decision or else he will ask him to leave the cabinet?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

I have nothing to add to my answer, Mr. Speaker. The minister has asked that all and any proceedings against the crown be discontinued and is not expecting any settlement from the government. It could not be clearer.

Registered Retirement Savings Plan

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to put my question to the Prime Minister.

Yesterday during debate the government member for Davenport suggested that the government should consider further limiting RRSP contributions. When asked about the possible repeal of the clawback of old age security, a measure which his party opposed in opposition, he suggested that everyone who pays into seniors' programs like OAS should benefit from them.

Is this the policy position of the government or are those options that the government would be considering?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance is preparing his budget. Any member of this House who wants to make a contribution and express his views on any part of the budget is free to do so.

The Minister of Finance will look at the member's speech of yesterday and make his own decision before the budget comes out. That is why we have the House of Commons and why members are welcome to express their views. I am happy when they express their views because that is democracy. However, it is up to the Minister of Finance to decide what will be part of the budget. We will know this some time in February.

[Stephen Harper, Reform, Calgary West, AB]

I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

We appreciate the opportunity to express our views and hope that the Prime Minister will use this opportunity to express his own views on this subject.

Is it the government's policy to go in the direction that we increase the dependency of Canadians on the underfunded and overburdened old age security system while undercutting their ability to provide for their own retirement?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have nothing to add. Everybody in society has to contribute to the financing of this government. This party wants to reduce the deficit and the debt and we are looking at all the options.

This is money earned by a lot of people on which they do not pay any tax. That is a way to accumulate money and I have nothing against it, but there is no tax paid on the money invested. We want to ensure that the system is fair between the poor and the rich in our society in relation to the tax system.

Human Rights

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Upon returning from its visit to Chiapas, the Canadian delegation set up by Development and Peace met yesterday with the Secretary of State responsible for Latin America and informed her of its great concern regarding the violation of human rights in that conflict. The Secretary of State has evidently downplayed the issue.

My first question is: Does the Minister of Foreign Affairs share the attitude of his colleague who seems to make light of the fact that human rights are being violated in this conflict, thereby leading us to believe that Canada is ignoring these violations?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I was very disappointed when I read the article in the Journal de Montréal of this morning which refers to comments made by Mrs. Marthe Lapierre and which probably prompted this question. I believe on the contrary that the secretary of state paid great attention to the representations made by the delegation returning from Mexico.

Moreover I must point out that that the secretary of state has made public statements which were reported in several newspapers-and I am surprised that the hon. member did not read those-and which confirm my colleague's great concern regarding the respect of human rights. The article published in the Journal de Montréal is absolutely unfair to the secretary of State.

I can assure the hon. member that we on the government side are all listening to those who are willing to make suggestions concerning this issue. I myself met this morning with the head of another delegation, Mr. Ovide Mercredi, and in the next few days, we will state on behalf of the government our position regarding this issue.

[Maud Debien, Bloc, Laval East, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister apart from listening, what specific steps does he intend to take to stress to Mexican authorities who, let us not forget, are Canada's partners under NAFTA, the vital importance of respecting human rights in Mexico?

[André Ouellet, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I already said to the House in response to a question that we had expressed our views and our concerns to Mexican authorities in this regard. Our ambassador has made representations on behalf of the government. I myself have had discussions with the Mexican ambassador in Ottawa and I also intend to meet her next week. Following those discussions with Mexican authorities we believe that they themselves will be able to make a decision regarding this issue.

I mentioned the fact that for the first time a human rights commission was established through the Mexican legislation and that President Salinas was adamant that every Mexican citizen must receive equal treatment before the law.

Goods And Services Tax

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of National Revenue. The day after the throne speech the Auditor General informed Canadians that some $1.8 billion of GST was overdue and not collected. He also informed Canadians that some 576 Canadians had not paid their GST.

Could the minister indicate whether those overdue payments will be paid or whether they disappear along with the GST?

[David Anderson, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue]

Mr. Speaker, may I congratulate a very experienced parliamentarian on his first presentation in this House. May I assure him that I was very pleased to see the Auditor General made clear that many of the criticisms from this side of the House when we were in opposition of the GST were in fact supported by his report.

I would also like to point out that measures have been taken, and I refer particularly to a press release I issued three weeks after assuming my position as minister to the effect that we would enhance enforcement, carry out more audits and have more prosecutions. We will continue to do that and I again am very happy to find that the Auditor General has supported the approach I took back in late November.

I can also assure the member that the amount of money involved is approximately 4 per cent of the total GST amount which is almost comparable to other jurisdictions that have a value added tax of this type. I can assure him that while 31 per cent of the firms and individuals who should be reporting have not done so, many of those individuals are in fact owed money by us and on others there is no question of owing anything at all.

This would explain for the member the discrepancy between a 4 per cent figure and a 31 per cent figure in terms of total numbers.