Debates of Jan. 31st, 1994

Immigration

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, London—Middlesex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my riding of London-Middlesex has a growing number of new Canadians from several countries, in particular from the Arab nations and from Poland.

It has become very obvious to me and to these constituents that we need better co-ordination of services among the three levels of government to help new Canadians adapt to their new society.

My constituents who are new Canadians tell me that they simply are not given enough information about how the Canadian government functions and how they can access Canadian government services.

As their member of Parliament I plan to highlight this concern during the life of this Parliament. I would ask the new minister to make this a priority item.

Cigarette Smuggling

[David Berger, Liberal, Saint-Henri—Westmount, QC]

Last Friday, the Bloc Quebecois member for Argenteuil-Papineau took part in a demonstration where thousands of dollars of smuggled cigarettes were sold.

The hon. member stood next to the mayor of Lachute for the opening ceremony.

[The Speaker]

Order. I would ask that we refrain as much as possible from personal attacks on any hon. member.

I know we are just getting information. I would hope the hon. member might rephrase his statement just a bit. I will permit him to continue under those conditions.

[David Berger, Liberal, Saint-Henri—Westmount, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I simply want to ask the Solicitor General to investigate a very serious situation, to determine whether the law was broken and, if so, to lay accusations under the appropriate act.

Tobacco smuggling is obviously a very serious problem in Canada, Mr. Speaker. This illegal activity is carried out by criminal organizations who take advantage of the same channels they use for drugs, arms and alcohol.

Victims of this activity are numerous and include law-abiding retailers, individuals and communities, and especially young Canadians.

Social Security

[Chris Axworthy, NDP, Saskatoon—Clark's Crossing, SK]

Mr. Speaker, today in the House of Commons the minister of human resources outlined his government's strategy to modernize and restructure Canada's system of social security between now and September.

It is an ambitious plan. While I commend the minister on his efforts I hope this process will be sufficient for the amount and extent of overhaul promised.

I hope too that this very open and important phase of consultations with the Canadian public will not be rendered obsolete before they even get off the ground when his colleague, the Minister of Finance, tables his budget in February.

I remind the minister that at the end of the process millions of Canadians will be holding the minister to his promise to renew and revitalize rather than slash and trash Canada's social safety net.

New Democrats, particularly those from my home province of Saskatchewan, have an interest in this review as they were instrumental in developing Canada's social programs in the first place.

The foundation of compassion and caring on which these social programs were built took decades to cement. We cannot allow it to be ripped apart on the altar of deficit reduction.

Board Of Internal Economy

[The Speaker]

On Friday, January 28, 1994, the hon. member for Nanaimo-Cowichan directed a question to the Prime Minister relating to the salary of House officers. Although I allowed the Prime Minister to respond, I reminded the House that such a question ought to be more properly addressed to the representative of the Board of Internal Economy. I also stated that I would seek advice and return to the House as soon as possible.

I want to take this occasion to clarify the procedure. All questions relating to the internal and financial management of the House of Commons fall within the statutory responsibilities of the Board of Internal Economy, the membership of which was tabled in the House on Wednesday, January 19, 1994.

Such matters do not fall within the administrative responsibility of the government. That is why responses to these questions cannot be expected from the ministry.

For the information of hon. members, there are two representatives of the board in the House who are available to offer information about the Board of Internal Economy. They are the chief government whip and the whip of the Official Opposition.

I would remind all members in this House that the Board of Internal Economy includes representatives of all three parties officially recognized in this House. Members can get information and advice from their representatives on the Board.

As always, independent members can rely on the Chair.

I thank all hon. members for the opportunity to clarify this procedure early in the 35th Parliament.

Taxation

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Finance.

A Bank of Canada study released today under the Access to Information Act has suggested to the government a number of measures that would increase income tax for families, students and, especially, for the elderly. By substantially reducing the current tax exemption for senior citizens, the Bank of Canada proposes saving a total of $1.8 billion at the expense of the elderly.

Does the minister intend to follow up on these recommendations, which would have the effect of raising income tax for thousands of senior citizens? In other words, is he prepared today to give certain assurances to these senior citizens who are concerned, and rightly so, about these recommendations, revealed just a few weeks before the budget speech?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development (Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member is aware, the report of the Bank of Canada was published on October 26, the day after the happy occasion of the federal election.

I can inform him that this was prepared under the aegis of the former government. We will read it. We will look at it. However, I can assure the Leader of the Opposition that we have no intention of doing anything at the expense of the senior citizens and the poor in this country.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Minister of Finance for his answer, which was specific enough to be somewhat reassuring for senior

citizens. I am not so sure that the occasion was as happy as he seems to think. The budget speech will tell whether the occasion was a happy one.

However, since this report exists, is now available to the public and will be widely examined, it may prove very tempting for people who want to tamper with what so far has been inviolable, and I am referring to old age pensions. Could the Minister of Finance tell us whether he personally, as the Minister of Finance, would agree to start taxing old age pensions when an individual's annual income exceeds $30,000, in order to save 700 to 800 million dollars at the expense of the elderly?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development (Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, our position has been very clear. Whether we are talking about different ways to close the loopholes in our tax system or about subsidies to corporations or individuals, the watch word is fairness. And that will be the purpose of this budget.

If the Bank of Canada's report contains some interesting points, we will certainly look at them. However, I believe I already answered the question last week when I referred to the Reform Party's program. I said that I felt their option, which is to cut subsidies and cut government spending on the elderly, was entirely unacceptable to us.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, continuing in the same vein, one has the impression this report was drafted by a member of the Reform Party, because one of the recommendations suggests abolishing the basic exemption of $3,482 for the elderly and to tax the first $1,000 of senior citizens' income.

Would the minister agree that publishing such information on the moral authority of the Bank of Canada is bound to upset people and is liable to create a political movement that might compromise old age security, causing it to be taxed mercilessly and unfairly, a measure that would be most harmful?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development (Quebec)]

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure whether I fully understood the gist of the question put by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. He seemed to be saying that the Bank of Canada should not release this information and should not try to express its views.

I think the Bank of Canada has the right to prepare these studies, and when it does, they should be published. However, as my hon. friend knows full well, we did not always agree with the Bank of Canada when we were in the Opposition, and I believe this study was prepared at that time.

Social Programs

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

The Minister just created uncertainty for millions of Quebecers and Canadians by putting into question the future of our income security system.

Is the Minister of Human Resources Development not using consultation to lead people into accepting cuts in social programs, exactly as his colleague the Minister of Finance did?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, it is very unfortunate that the hon. member makes hasty pre-judgments before there is any opportunity to hear from Canadians. The whole reason for having a Parliament is to listen to what Canadians have to say.

We have been listening to Canadians and they have said that they do want changes because the present system is not working. It is too bad the Bloc Quebecois is taking such a reactionary position. Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition is still reflecting his position as it used to exist in the previous government.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, despite his generous observations, is the Minister not of the opinion that his government is putting the cart before the horse by putting into question the social security net-despite all the good intentions he expressed towards Quebec and Canada-before doing anything to put an end to federal waste of money and, in particular, before proposing a job creation strategy?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, as I said this morning, if we are going to get Canadians in all provinces and all regions back to work, we must do it systematically. We must do it through stimulation of the economy, by creating work through infrastructure and by encouraging small business. We must do it by looking at our employment, training and income security programs.

This government has a global, comprehensive look. If the hon. member simply looks through a very narrow pipe and is not able to see the broad picture then it is no wonder the Bloc is not able to understand what a good place Canada is.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development. It concerns his proposal to redesign Canada's social safety net.

The fact that we have a caucus of 52 members speaks well to the point that we too are listening to Canadians. They have been saying that when their businesses or their families establish budgets they always ask how much money is available and then they ask how best they can use it. It is only governments that decide what they want and then try to find the money to pay for it.

Will the minister break with his backward budgetary approach and ask the Minister of Finance for a pre-established, overall budget limit for social spending?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, as I listen to the questions arising in the House, first we hear from the Bloc Quebecois who make no change and then from the Reform Party who say there is no safety net.

Only the Liberals really understand that what we really need is to create a system in which people want to get back to work and we will help them do that.

I say to my hon. friend that in the discussions we have held so far with our provincial colleagues, business, labour and others they all recognized that until we redesign a system that really targets the need to get people back to work, to get employment, jobs and growth we will never be able to solve Canada's deficit problems.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, certainly no one understands the concern of Canadians about their social safety net any more than Reformers who are so closely in touch with them.

During the minister's speech this morning he did not properly recognize the acute financial reality that Canada faces today. How realistic and sustainable can a long term plan be if it does not take into account the severe financial constraints Canada faces today?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, as we have said many times, we are certainly aware of the real financial pressures for all kinds of programs and for all kinds of initiatives.

As I said in answer to an earlier question, we believe that by taking a systematic approach, by taking a look at the various ways government can collaborate with the provinces, with the private sector and with interest groups can we redesign our social security programs to make them more efficient but more particularly to give the kinds of opportunities, options and choices for people to re-enter the labour market.

However, the core of solving our problems is not simply to slash and trash programs. It is to revitalize and renew them and put Canadians back into the workplace.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

Mr. Speaker, certainly we concur that we want to see Canadians going back to work. I have a further supplementary question for the minister who informed the House this morning that he will announce soon the names of those chosen to sit on his task force.

Could the minister tell the House how those people were chosen and whether there are any members who will bring a strong sense of fiscal responsibility to the table?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, all members of the task force will have a strong sense of fiscal responsibility and a strong sense of social responsibility.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. The government is currently engaging in a vast consultation exercise. Your colleague, the Minister of Human Resources Development, is holding consultations to restructure social programs. On the other hand, the Prime Minister gave you a mandate to hold a national forum on health to identify priorities in this area.

Does the Minister not think that is a lot of consultation? How is she going to harmonize her own reform program with that undertaken by the Minister of Human Resources Development?

[Diane Marleau, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, in the last five years we spent here, Canadians across the country told us: You do not listen to us enough. And we told them, now that we are in office, we will work in co-operation with all Canadians and all levels of government. The national forum on health will do exactly that. We will try to bring all levels together so that everyone can benefit from positive initiatives taken across the country.

[Pauline Picard, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the government is intensifying its consultation efforts on manpower training, education and health. Does it mean that, as far as health care is concerned, the government is using this forum to centralize services and encroach on areas of provincial jurisdiction?