Debates of Oct. 21st, 1994

Communications Security Establishment

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I simply want to remind the Prime Minister there was an election campaign, the stakes were clear and we are the result of that campaign. But that is not the point.

The point is this: How can the Prime Minister expect his evasive answers on this issue to reassure Quebecers, when we know perfectly well that all illegal activities by the RCMP in Quebec, including stealing the Parti Quebecois membership lists, were subject to federal laws and took place under a Liberal government, of which he was a member?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the point is that there are all kinds of stories about espionage. I know an expert on the subject, Claude Morin, who may be the Parti Quebecois-

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

I would ask colleagues to please refrain from using props in the House. It becomes a little cumbersome as we go along.

Gun Control

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. Yesterday, in Ontario, seven people were the victims of violent crimes committed with firearms. One took place in a school and the other during a bank robbery. Such tragic events are a reminder of the urgent need to institute better control of firearms in Canada. An undertaking to this effect in the red book was reiterated by the Prime Minister at the Liberal Convention last May.

Why has the Minister of Justice still not tabled his gun control bill?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is quite right in saying that the tragic and troubling events in Toronto yesterday merely serve to remind us of the importance and the urgency of this challenge. Far from holding back proposals in this regard, the Department of Justice is busy preparing them in detail.

I returned this week from a trip to Alberta and the Northwest Territories; before that to British Columbia and Yukon; before that to the maritimes and Quebec; and before that to Ontario and the central part of the country. Everywhere I have gone I have spoken with interested groups, putting together a package of proposals that will be introduced in the House in the near future which will deal not only with illegal firearms but also with the criminal penalties for the misuse of firearms, and which will add further sensible and needed regulation to the control of firearms in private ownership. That is our proposal.

[René Laurin, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this government has been in power for a year now and for a year the smallest legislative measure seems to have become inexplicably complex. Everything is used as a pretext to justify the government's failure to act. This is an urgent matter. Seven people nearly lost their lives yesterday.

Will the Minister of Justice admit that the delays in tabling his bill are attributable to very strong opposition within the Liberal caucus?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will admit no such thing. The Liberal caucus, like the country as a whole, wants to discuss every aspect of the issue to make sure we get it right.

There are varying points of view. We are not embarrassed by it; we are proud of it. It reflects the diverse nature of the population. In caucus, in cabinet, we will discuss every aspect of the issue and then we will bring forward proposals that are well thought out and for which we have prepared the country through the kind of consultation in which I am personally engaged.

Health Care

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Prime Minister launched a $12 million travelling medical show that will wander the country for four years. It will not report until after the next federal election. Its recommendations will gather dust on a shelf because the prov-

inces that have the constitutional responsibility in this area are not very much involved.

It is clear to us that the Prime Minister is using this forum to avoid addressing the problems of the health care system rather than addressing them.

I ask the Prime Minister: Is there not one concrete action that he can propose today to demonstrate his government's commitment to really reforming the health care system?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, we launched a forum yesterday and we invited experts from many fields to advise us on it. In discussions with them we said they have up to four years and that everyone serving on the commission should do it voluntarily. None of them will be paid.

I told them that I would like to receive reports as soon as they cover one element so that we can act. The health care system that we have in Canada is a very good system but it is getting very expensive. We want to make sure that we maintain universal free medicare for all Canadians.

We have to do that in consultation with the provinces. It is what the Minister of Health is doing. I wanted to have people who are not representing the self-interest groups within the system to look into that. That is exactly what they will be doing.

They will report every six months or so, whenever they are ready. They will make some concrete suggestions that will help us to maintain free medicare for all Canadians, not a good system for the rich and a bad one for the poor like the Reform Party would like to do.

We want one that will serve all Canadians, enabling them to have access to hospitals free because they are citizens of Canada.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is talk, talk, talk. There is no concrete action at all.

Then there is the finance minister who talks and talks and consults and consults and shows charts and charts. He admits that the additional spending cuts are urgently required but he continues to defer action.

I ask the finance minister: Is there not one major new spending reduction that he could put forward today to demonstrate to the Canadian people his seriousness about reducing the deficit?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I fail to understand the

refusal of the Reform Party to understand why Canadians really do want to have some input into the budget making process.

I fail to understand why the leader of the opposition does not want to join into what is really a-

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

He is not the opposition.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard, QC]

That is right. We could cut the opposition's research budget.

We are engaged in a unique experiment in Canadian economic history and that is opening up the budget process, getting rid of budget secrecy. Why is it that the Reform Party seems to think that only within its narrow executive is the repository of all good thinking? I do not understand.

We in the Liberal Party believe in the common sense of Canadians and we are going to tap into it.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, no concrete action.

Then there is the Solicitor General who has a lot of problems he could be fixing. CSIS and the Communications Security Establishment, two agencies that are virtually unaccountable, have been accused of basic violations of human rights.

When the Solicitor General is asked about these matters there is the standard routine: "This is a serious matter", blah, blah, blah. "We are investigating", blah, blah, blah. "I cannot comment any more", blah, blah, blah".

If his only response is that, he should not bother to get up, but can the Solicitor General tell us one concrete change that he has actually made to improve the accountability of CSIS and the Communications Security Establishment?

[The Speaker]

Usually when we start on a line of questioning, the supplementaries are in the same area. I am going to permit the question today, but I would ask all hon. members to please in their supplementaries try to tie them to the first question posed.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Solicitor General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, first, the security centre responds not to me but to the Minister of National Defence. Second, with respect to CSIS I have ensured that the Security Intelligence Review Committee and the Inspector General as mandated by Parliament are in fact doing their work.

In light of that answer I will leave the blah blah blah to the leader of the Reform Party.

National Forum On Health

[Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral, Bloc, Laval Centre, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Prime Minister.

The Prime Minister said yesterday in the opening speech of the Canadian Forum on Health, and I quote: "Unless we take a broad view of health, we will not succeed in reducing costs".

How can the Prime Minister make such a statement, when those with health-care planning expertise and responsibility, that is, the provinces, were not invited to participate fully in the discussions at the Forum on Health?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I find this very funny because it is a panel of experts. The provinces said that they wanted to be there. So the Minister of Health told them, "Fine. How many members do you want on the panel?" They said, "Five". So we said, "Fine".

They then decided that was not what they wanted; they wanted to co-chair with the Prime Minister. Unfortunately, there are not two Prime Ministers of Canada, there is only one.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

Yes, and he is there for a long time, too. No problem.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

Then I thought that I should be a nice guy and that if a premier wanted to come or if they all wanted to attend these meetings, they would all be welcome. After arguing all summer about their attending the forum, despite very generous offers, they decided not to come. So we went right back to square one. But we listened to them and they understood in the end that these experts will make recommendations that will apply not only to us but also to them. It is their mandate.

Every day, decisions are made by health ministers, and the conference of federal and provincial health ministers will continue. Nothing has changed in that regard. We can work together but, to find a long-term solution, a review such as this one was needed. We in Canada cannot afford to lose our health insurance system because we did not take the time to plan for the future.

[Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral, Bloc, Laval Centre, QC]

Mr. Speaker, we recognize the Prime Minister's commendable efforts but since he claims that this is not a decision making forum and that the real decisions will be made at health ministers' conferences, why does he stubbornly insist on wasting $12 million taken directly from the pockets of Canadian taxpayers?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the health forum is a very useful exercise. We have to look at the problem of health care in Canada. It is now costing about 10 per cent of the GDP, the highest after the United States. We have to look at the problem because if we do not we will be facing some very difficult choices.

We have asked some experts to look at the medium and long term problems of the national health care system. They are doing just that. I can guarantee that this forum is a very good investment to guarantee that eventually we will keep a health care system in Canada that is free. There will not be one for the rich and one for the poor, but a system that gives the same rights and opportunities and the same guarantees to all citizens of Canada.