House of Commons Hansard #116 of the 35th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was recall.

Topics

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2 p.m.

Reform

Diane Ablonczy Reform Calgary North, AB

Mr. Speaker, I hope that the government will engage in debate on this issue as time goes on.

In the birthplace of democracy in Athens, the accountability of elected officials was through a process of recall which was by way of ostracizing wayward politicians. Wayward politicians were ostracized and not allowed to participate in public life and they were also sometimes exiled from the country.

I think a lot of Canadians would feel that we should go right back to original democratic principles sometimes.

Also recall has been a facet of the Swiss system since before its formal adoption in the 19th century. In the 19th century recall was by another name.

It was known as the imperative mandate. It is a device whereby elected officials can be subjected at any time to the review of the people who put them in office and I would suggest that this makes eminent sense in light of what democracy really is.

I remind Canadians again that democracy is rule by the people. We are simply the representatives of the people here in this Chamber. We are here because they have chosen us, given us the honour and the responsibility to represent their concerns, their wishes and their interests and carry them out on their behalf.

A lot of times Canadians feel that once elected, representatives simply disconnect from the people who put them in place, pay the bills and whose future is affected by their decisions.

I would also point out that recall is truly democratic because citizens can only recall their own representative, not someone else's. It is the people who put a representative in place, who have the wisdom to elect that representative in the first place, who should be able to have the say as to whether that representative continues in the position where the electors have put them.

I want to point out to members of this House that every other Canadian is subject to recall. If you are in a job or a position and you do not do it properly you will be booted out. You will be replaced. You will be given a pink slip. Yet somehow 295 Canadians who have a very important job, a very critical job, a job on which hangs the future and the well-being of thousands and thousands of Canadians, feel that somehow they should not be subject to the same type of representation and accountability and recall as every other Canadian. This simply does not make sense and it should be rectified.

People are cynical and disrespectful of politicians because they do not open themselves up to this evaluation. It is an axiom that if you want trust from others you must trust them in response. We hear this all the time when we are counselled about dealing with our children, dealing with staff in management situations and in all facets of human relationships. Mutual trust is so important.

Yet it appears that members of this House are not prepared to entrust their future and evaluation of their performance and of the adequacy of what they are doing to the Canadian public. This does not make sense and we need to re-examine our belief in the common sense of the people who elected us in the first place.

When we asked the Prime Minister of this present government about his support for the concept of recall his response was that Canadians have the ability to recall their representative in an election.

Canadians know well that a general election is not the most effective time for a performance review because that is the time when so many issues are at stake with not only individual representatives but really the party and the leadership. Other kinds of programs and policies are on the table. A performance review is such a very small part of all of the factors that electors have to weigh at the time of an election that it is not fair to say that is the definitive moment when electors should be deciding whether a particular candidate is satisfactory.

MP recall, I believe, would dramatically change the sensitivity of MPs to issues by shifting the balance from parties to people and that is where it really belongs. If a backbench MP could say to the government whip and to the front benches "I am sorry, I would like to support this measure. I know you are telling me to but if I do I am going to get turfed out back home because this is simply not supported by the people I represent", think of how much healthier it would be and how much more meaningful real legislation would be if it had to have the real support of the people we speak for and vote for.

That would be one of the healthiest changes we could bring to do something to really address the issues of the country in a meaningful way, in a way that meets with the approval of the people we represent.

There are so many reasons why we need to have the courage and the faith in the Canadian public to bring forward these direct democracy measures that I urge this House to reconsider, especially members on the other side, their resistance to moving in this direction and to support my colleague's bill on recall of representatives.

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Catterall Liberal Ottawa West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I accept your ruling on the point of order. However inadvertently I do believe that the member who just spoke has provided some incorrect information to the House and I do want to put on record a correction in the context of speaking on the motion of the member for Beaver River.

The member has suggested that Liberal members of Parliament are somehow avoiding this debate. To this point an equal number of Liberal and Reform Party members have spoken in this debate. It is an ongoing debate. It is not just this particular hour. Four Liberal members of Parliament spoke on the issue and four Reform members of Parliament spoke on the issue.

I think that indicates clearly our interest in this debate. Nonetheless, this issue of a recall is a matter of Reform Party policy and so today we did feel that we wanted to leave the floor to the members of the Reform Party to explain their policy to Canadians.

However, having been challenged to enter the debate I am not going to by any means give up that opportunity.

I have spoken on this issue before in this House but I am pleased to do so again if the Reform Party members do not wish to use the full-time we wanted to accord them the courtesy of.

I have compared this legislation to a kind of instantaneous divorce and suggested that when I chose a spouse and I think when most people choose a spouse they do so very carefully and with great forethought, and they make a long term commitment to that relationship. Because it is a long term commitment, they tend to choose very carefully and take their choice very seriously and recognize that there will be in any relationship, a marriage or an elected representative, some good times and some bad times.

As I said at that time, I am sure that in 33 years there have been many times when had instant divorce been available either my husband or I would have taken advantage of it. Looking back on 33 years we will conclude that all in all the good times outweighed the bad and we are glad we stuck with it.

Participatory democracy is more than paying a buck to pick up the phone and register your opinion without the responsibility to engage in dialogue with others who perhaps have different opinions, or to consider other interests involved in the opinion you are expressing.

It is very easy to selfishly say "this is my opinion". It is not so easy to say "I have an opinion but I also want to know what the impact of that opinion is on other people. I want the opportunity to engage in dialogue with them about the pros and cons and the effects this will have on our society as a whole and, the bottom line, what is good for the country".

Members express a lot of concern about special interest groups. Frankly, one of my concerns about this legislation is that it does very much put members of Parliament at the mercy of very special interest groups that have both the social standing and the economic means to organize to unseat a member of Parliament because they do not like a decision that member of Parliament made. This has happened in many jurisdictions around the world. Sometimes that special interest group is the military which manages to unseat a whole government with disastrous results for its society.

Recall in fact has the potential to produce a very selfish citizenry who look at every vote from the point of view of what is in their interest and whether the member is serving their interest. It is not: Is this member serving the interests of the community or the country at large? Is this member sensitive to interests that are not his or her own? Are they concerned not only about today but about tomorrow and the next generation? That is what we are here for. It is not to please people in the very short term. We are here to try and listen to our constituents and do what is best for them, for our country and for all citizens.

This government has taken significant measures to ensure that in fact democracy is not simply a question of what happens at the ballot box and then go away and forget your constituents and they forget you. We have done our best to introduce ongoing participation in the democratic process.

I want to say one final word about caucus. I do not know how the Reform Party caucus operates. I do know that every Wednesday morning we in the government caucus have the opportunity to freely and openly express our point of view to our Prime Minister and to one another. Together we resolve those differences of opinion we have. When we come in here we do what we believe is in the interests of the country.

Finally, we made a commitment as a government. We made numerous commitments to the country during an election campaign. We want to be able to keep those commitments. We are working at that day in and day out. We need to have some solidarity of caucus to do that because that is what Canadians expect of us.

Let me just return to my main point in rising today. In the first hour of debate on this bill on April 29, 1994 there were four Liberal speakers and one Reform speaker. There have only been three Reform speakers today.

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Reform

Deborah Grey Reform Beaver River, AB

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I would like to clarify a lot. First of all I would like to just say that this bill was debated in February, not April. February was the beginning of this debate-

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Order, order. If the member has a point of order relating to another matter of which she has given an indication, would she please get to that matter quickly.

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Reform

Deborah Grey Reform Beaver River, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask to speak briefly under the right of reply under Standing Order 44(2). I believe we have time as we go to about 28 minutes after the hour.

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Let me just see if I can be helpful. The debate when it began earlier this day had 45 minutes left on it. Now the request from the member for Beaver River is under a standing order concerning which is commonly referred to as right of reply. Where a member of the House moves a substantive motion the House of course recognizes that that person under right of reply is the last one to speak on the debate which closes the debate.

I believe the hon. member for Beaver River is asking the House for unanimous consent to have, I will arbitrarily select a figure, two minutes to close the debate and then I must put the question.

Is there unanimous consent to allow the member for Beaver River who moved the motion to close the debate?

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Catterall Liberal Ottawa West, ON

Yes, Mr. Speaker, then the debate closes without unanimous consent?

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Yes, the debate will close two minutes from the time the member for Beaver River begins to speak and I will put the question forthwith. Is that agreed?

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Reform

Deborah Grey Reform Beaver River, AB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to just close off this debate by saying how much I appreciate members who have spoken in favour of this bill. The member for Ottawa West called it a foolish idea when she rose in her place. They may think it is a foolish idea but I am here to say that the Canadian public, even Liberals who have been polled across the country, hardly think this is a foolish idea.

What the Canadian public thinks is foolish are the people in this Chamber who are completely immune to job security, completely immune to being put forward to somebody who would say: "You are not doing your job, you are not acting responsibly".

The member for Ottawa West spoke about good times and bad times in a marriage. She likened this bill to an instant divorce. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are many provisions in this bill to be safeguards for that.

This is something that is going to carry on over a period of days, weeks, even months. A person who has been a member of Parliament for 18 months has had a chance to prove themselves. That is hardly an instant divorce.

This bill calls for 50 per cent plus 1 of the number of voters who voted in the last election. That is not something that can be obtained instantly to call for this instant divorce.

I will wrap up my comments by saying how sad I find it that people on the government side refer to this whole thing as just something that is foolish, that they have spoken about it more than we have. May I draw the House's attention to the fact that the Liberals said today they have no more speakers on this. The member got up without knowing her facts about the bill, making comments about it.

I would urge this government to support-

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Order. Pursuant to Standing Order 93, the time provided for debate has expired.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Recall ActPrivate Members' Business

2:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)

Pursuant to order made Thursday, October 27, 1994, the division stands deferred until Tuesday, November 1, 1994, at the expiry of the time provided for Government Orders.

This House stands adjourned until Monday next at 11 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 2.22 p.m.)