Debates of Oct. 4th, 1994

The Deficit

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting in this House that the government and the Bloc fight over who is going on a trip when the finances of this country are in grave difficulty.

The finance minister has indicated in this House that the savings from the social policy review would go toward reducing the deficit. The Deputy Prime Minister has said that the savings from the social policy review would not go toward reducing the deficit.

Will the Prime Minister indicate to this House whether the savings from the social policy review will go to reducing the deficit, yes or no?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the member will have his answer in reading the document.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, just last Thursday in this assembly the Minister of Finance said the savings from the social policy review would go to cut spending and indicated that to this assembly.

Would the Prime Minister indicate whether that is the policy of the government? If it is not it should be made clear to Canadians here today.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to see the avid interest of the hon. member in the matter of social reform.

I would say it comes about nine months too late because the fact of the matter is we set out very clearly the fiscal parameters as applied to the social reform program in the February budget.

[Ray Speaker, Reform, Lethbridge]

Mr. Speaker, the government does not want to tell the Canadian people where it stands on this issue and whether it is ready to face its responsibilities.

Will the Minister of Finance indicate whether his economic statement which I understand is to be released in mid-October will advise the Canadian people that the government has enough courage to reduce spending in social policy areas to deal with the deficit of this nation?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development -Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, there have been a number of statements from the government. They have been very consistent on the fact that we regard social security reform as a means of making this a more cost effective and efficient country and of delivering services to Canadians in by far the most efficient way possible.

We also understand the pressures that are on us. I would quote, for instance, from the minister of human resources when he referred the other day to the massive debts that must be reduced.

Then he said that if we do not accept that reality we are going to have the bond dealers in New York dictating our social policy. The one difference between that side of the House and this is that we understand that our economic and social sovereignty is in doubt and we are not going to let anybody dictate to us the direction that this country ought to take.

Social Program Reform

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

The minister is preparing to table nothing more than a discussion paper tomorrow, while he had promised to come up by last April with a plan of action setting the course for government social program reform. In addition, because of objections raised by several provinces, this reform project is already far behind schedule.

Will the minister not recognize that tabling a mere discussion paper only confirms his failure to develop a real plan of action setting the course for government social program reform?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

No, Mr. Speaker.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Speaker, are we to understand from this "no" that under the cover of broad consultation hides the minister's real objective, namely to cut $4 billion in transfer payments to the provinces and benefits paid to individuals?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, it appears that the hon. member is suffering from a case of premature agitation.

I would suggest that the best solution to that ailment is to wait until tomorrow to see what the paper really says and what we really propose.

Immigration

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the immigration minister's so-called public consultation process is now over.

I trust that in addition to special interest groups the minister has consulted with Dr. Don Devoretz, a leading immigration expert, who says that the family reunification policy has lowered the success of today's immigrants.

Is this minister committed to acting upon the will of Canadians as expressed in poll after poll as well as the findings of experts? Will he substantially reduce the level of immigration in Canada?

[Sergio Marchi, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, not only was Don Devoretz an invited guest at our two-day conference, he was also a member of a working group. We looked very seriously at the work that he has been able to generate in British Columbia. He is certainly a leading advocate in terms of some of the economic ties with immigration.

It should also be noted that he said very clearly that immigration helps this country and that when one looks at the tax system, and these are his words, immigrants have paid more into the tax system than they have taken in social benefits.

When we reflect on some of the things that he has said, we can adjust this to everything he has said.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Beaver River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if we look specifically at the report perhaps part of this was taken out of context.

The minister's own employees have called for lowering the numbers in two separate reports. So have his government backbenchers. Ontario's NDP government has sent a very strong message to either cut the numbers or double the integration grants.

Will this minister admit that he perhaps is not listening to anybody, not the experts, his backbenchers nor the civil servants or even other governments and certainly not to Canadians in general. His million dollar immigration consultations have been a farce.

[Sergio Marchi, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, maybe the member should wait until the government announces the levels on or before November 1 and then perhaps accuse the government of not listening or not acting.

I would tell the hon. member that the consultation process has never ever been as open as the one that we have been engaged in for the last eight months. Never before have thousands of people been involved rather than 120. Never before have 30,000 information kits been distributed.

The process that we embarked upon was taken seriously and has yielded a lot of good results that will help this government and not hinder when we present those levels in this Chamber.

Registered Retirement Savings Plans

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

The government has not tried to stop speculation that RRSPs may be taxed starting with the next federal budget. The Minister of Finance himself fuels the uncertainty about this possibility that some observers call reactionary, outrageous and odious.

Does the Minister of Finance not agree that by fuelling the uncertainty about the future of RRSPs, he makes it much harder for thousands of middle-class taxpayers to make the extremely important retirement-planning decisions required at this time of year?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I said many times that I would not make specific comments or suggestions about the budget before tabling it. I think it is the fifth time the hon. member has asked the same question. I do not understand how he can accuse me of wanting to fuel the uncertainty.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Speaker, does the Minister of Finance not realize that by thinking of taxing RRSPs, he gives a clear signal that he has chosen the option of raising taxes instead of doing what everyone expected of him, that is, cutting government expenditures?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance and Minister responsible for the Federal Office of Regional Development-Quebec]

Mr. Speaker, I said very clearly that government spending must be cut and I can hardly wait for the hon. member, who is on the finance committee, to make very specific suggestions as to where we should cut.

Refugees

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in 1985 the Supreme Court ruled that section 7 of the charter applies to everyone that is on Canadian soil. The Reform Party has argued that refugee claimants must be heard in a manner that is humanitarian and fair but which does not tie up the judicial system with endless legal wrangling.

Will the minister of immigration agree that it could be necessary to amend the Constitution in order to limit the ability of non-residents to endlessly tie up our refugee determination and legal systems with appeals?

[Sergio Marchi, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

No, I do not, Mr. Speaker.

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

I have a supplemental, Mr. Speaker.

Taxpayers are tired of paying for endless legal aid appeals to support those ordered out of the country. The minister's negative reaction is especially ironic since in 1986 he went on record saying that in order to gain control of our refugee system refugee camps might have to be built in Canada to restrict the movement of refugee claimants.

[An hon. member]

What?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Art Hanger, Reform, Calgary Northeast, AB]

What section of the charter can the minister cite to defend that idea?

[Sergio Marchi, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question stands.

They talk about judicial wrangling. His colleague from Vancouver regularly asks about the Mendoza file. The federal government appealed to the Federal Court. Yesterday the Federal Court overturned the decision and ordered a new hearing.

The judicial system is working. He cannot have it both ways.