Debates of Oct. 6th, 1994

Social Program Reform

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, we have said many times in the House that it would be much more valuable, rather than using speculative stories and leaked documents to try to scare people, for the hon. Leader of the Opposition to use the real facts as presented in the government documents which we have made public. They are the real ones.

The document we tabled yesterday clearly indicates that fiscal parameters had been established in the 1994 budget. It indicated that we would hold transfer payments at the 1993-94 level and that we would have in the 1994 budget savings from the unemployment insurance fund, which were obtained last year in Bill C-17.

I have also said publicly that we would like to target another 10 per cent of savings so we could devote that money toward enhanced employment, job creation and training programs for unemployed Canadians.

Those fiscal figures are real. They mean something and they are the ones that apply. Anything beyond that is simply speculation. The document that the hon. leader refers to has no relevance or any meaning in terms of real decisions made by this government.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the document quoted by the Toronto Star is a Cabinet document saying that not only has the decision to reduce social spending by $7.5 billion, in addition to the cuts already announced, been made, but the ministers also decided to hide the truth from everybody during the consultation process. The Toronto Star is not a paper suspected of anti-Liberals sentiments, so I give it some credibility. That gives us an idea of what it would be like if the Reform Party were in power.

Does the Prime Minister admit that by hiding the extent of the cuts his government intends to impose on the needy he is asking people to participate in a phony consultation? How can a government that will reduce social spending by $15 billion in five years still speak of compassion?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, earlier the minister explained very clearly the government's position. In the budget brought down by the Minister of Finance, we indicated, as the minister mentioned a while ago, that we would not cut transfers to provinces but that we would freeze them for a year. We passed unemployment legislation that led to reductions. That is the context in which these discussions with the public will take place.

As for the document to which the hon. member is referring, it is not a Cabinet document, but rather an internal memo from a particular department. I receive many documents of this nature every day; very often, several of them end up in the waste paper basket.

[Lucien Bouchard, Bloc, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, the problem is that this particular memo did not end up in the waste paper basket but on the front page of the Toronto Star .

Now that the government's hidden agenda in terms of real cuts and bogus consultations has been revealed, will the Prime Minister be honest and tell us what other unpleasant surprises he has in store for Canadians in this social reform?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is a very important document. The minister is addressing a fundamental problem in our society. We have had social programs that have served us well until now. However, as the minister explained in his speech this morning, the context is completely different today.

The minister was not afraid to tackle the issue and go to the bottom of things. But we do not want to impose all the solutions. The minister has offered several alternatives. We will discuss these alternatives with the provinces and with all those interested in taking part in these discussions, and we will introduce legislation next year.

As for the fiscal parameters, everybody knows that we have made a clear commitment to reduce our country's deficit to 3 per cent of the GDP by the end of the third year. And as the minister was saying, all the departments are encouraged to make cuts in order to help us reach our goal as easily as possible, without destroying the good things that we have now.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the document Agenda: Jobs and Growth goes well beyond that since it says, and I quote: ``A social security system that is financially unsustainable is a dead end''. They are talking about financial sustainability, Mr. Speaker!

As it had already done in last February's budget, instead of addressing the causes, the government has obviously chosen to attack the unemployed by proposing measures that restrict access to unemployment insurance. Yet, in Quebec alone, the 1993 cuts to the unemployment insurance program forced 22,000 unemployed to go on welfare.

In these conditions, how can the minister claim that, by restricting access to unemployment insurance, he will give to the unemployed the hope and confidence they so badly need when he has not proposed any real job creation measures?

[The Speaker]

I hope that the question will be a little bit shorter next time.

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. deputy looks carefully at the words she used, rentable means investment. We are talking about investment in people, investment in their skills, investment in their talents, investment in their thoughts. Investment is what it is all about.

I listened this morning to the hon. Leader of the Opposition. In his speech I did not hear one idea about how to get people back to work, not one idea of how to invest in the country, not one idea of how we can help the people of Canada. All he wants to do is tear the country down.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Human Resources Development. How can the Minister, in his paper, make the victims of a situation where jobs are insecure and scarce, particularly those claimants who regularly rely on UI benefits and make up 40 per cent of our unemployment insurance rolls, carry the blame for the difficult circumstances in which they find themselves? Is that the famous change they so often tell us about?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the paper contains a series of very important choices for Canadians. The most important is: are we prepared to invest in helping people get back to work? Can we help them improve their education, their skills? Can we give them the incentives to go back to work by offering an earning supplement to an employer? Can we help them start their own jobs and start their own businesses?

Those are the key issues. We are not taking away from the unemployed. We are giving to the unemployed. We are giving them hope, we are giving them resources, we are re-equipping them for the new economy so they can get jobs.

We are not standing as an elite, as the members of the opposition do. They want to see people stay on unemployment insurance. They want to see people stay unemployed. They have no interest in getting them back to work.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the government's social policy paper is devoid of detailed information concerning the cost of the proposed reforms or the projected savings. It is that vacuum that is generating the speculation about what is meant.

It seems that the government either does not know the cost and savings figures, or if it does know it is hiding them from Canadians.

Is the Minister of Human Resources Development ignorant of the detailed cost and savings consequences of his paper or is he withholding them?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the answer to the questions is no and no.

[Elwin Hermanson, Reform, Kindersley—Lloydminster, SK]

That's good. You can tell us then.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is virtually impossible to have the public discussion that the minister asked for on social reform without Canadians knowing the detailed cost of the alternatives that are presented. They are not contained in the paper.

The social net is in a mess because Liberals in the sixties and seventies would not answer the questions: what does it cost and where is the money going to come from.

To facilitate the discussion that the minister says he wants, will he provide in the next week an addendum to the discussion paper detailing the cost of his social reform proposals and the expected savings?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, if the leader of the Reform Party had been listening more carefully to what we have been saying, I indicated that a series of technical papers are being issued that will give very detailed accounts of all the kinds of programs.

I am going to make an offer to the hon. Leader of the Opposition. I will table my detailed financial and economic reports if the hon. leader of the Reform Party will tell us what programs he intends to cut in the $15 billion of social program cuts his member announced. Is he cutting seniors' pensions? Is he cutting aid to children? Is he cutting programs for education? When is he going to detail what he is going to cut?

[Preston Manning, Reform, Calgary Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this figure of $15 billion which the minister bandies about is the government's figure. The government has a $40 billion deficit. It says it is going to get to $25 billion in three years. We know that math is not a requirement for being the Minister of Human Resources Development but that adds up to $15 billion.

Ministers who have grand plans and proposals and no ideas on how much they cost or how to finance them have been the curse of finance ministers since the days of Sir John A. Macdonald. I ask the finance minister, if the Minister of Human Resources Development cannot or will not provide Canadians with the cost and projected savings of his paper, will the finance minister agree to do so?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, clearly the Reform Party does not like the answers they are getting. They are too truthful for them to absorb.

I know that it is very difficult for the hon. leader of the Reform Party to say anything that has not been pre-scripted. We saw last night how he made comments before he had read the report and now he is asking questions after I have already given the answer.

I have already said to the hon. leader that we will be tabling very specific technical papers. In so doing I would like to return the compliment to the leader and ask if he is going to explain the comment of his colleague, the member of Parliament for Calgary North, who said "we are going to cut in the neighbourhood of $50 million largely from social programs". When is he going to come clean as to what he wants to cut?

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Human Resources Development.

The Minister's discussion paper confirms the worst fears recently reported by the media. Not only is this document going after the most destitute members of our society, but it is targeting women specifically. It proposes to make the spouse's income level a criterion for UI entitlement.

How can the Minister justify his approach that makes women's right to UI benefits subject to their spouse's income level?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, I would recommend strongly that the hon. member read the green paper. If she reads it she will recognize that in that proposal we talk about major programs for child care so that we would have a national strategy for child care funded to the tune of 700 million new dollars.

We are talking about a major program dealing with child support as it affects women. We are talking about major programs to enable women to get back into the workforce. We are talking about major proposals that would deal with the whole problem of family work and how we can provide coverage under unemployment insurance and other income security programs for part time work occasioned by women.

This is a document to emancipate women into the workforce and give them full rights for the first time.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since this proposal is an unacceptable setback for women after decades of struggle for increased financial independence, will the Minister immediately undertake to withdraw this proposal which is in fact discriminatory?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, once again I think it would be very helpful if in preparing questions the hon. member was relevant to the kinds of issues that we are dealing with.

I am saying that I would like to see the hon. member, who expresses a real concern for women, come out and support the proposals in this green paper to have a national child care program. Will she support a program for child support enforcement? Will she support a program that will help women get back into the workforce? Will she support a program that will help women go back to school and university? Will she support those proposals in the green paper, yes or no?

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if this minister had anything useful to say he probably would not be attacking other members and inventing things that they never said.

Is not the reason this minister has only produced a discussion paper and not an action plan because the minister cannot get co-operation from the provinces?

[Lloyd Axworthy, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development and Minister of Western Economic Diversification]

Mr. Speaker, the most important part of any action plan in this day and age is to make sure that all Canadians have an opportunity to participate in forming it, in shaping it and in designing it. That is what consultation is about.

I understand the Reform Party has this authoritarian streak. It does not want to consult with people. It does not want to ask people. It does not want people to participate.

Why is the Reform Party afraid to go to the public and ask what they think rather than going ding-a-ling on a telephone line?

[John Cummins, Reform, Delta, BC]

The program is so sick the book has turned green.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am encouraged that the minister already sees we are going to be the government and he is already trying to-